The Pathos of Distance

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The Pathos of Distance

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    What Does Man Want?

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    Barracuda

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    What Does Man Want?

    Post by Barracuda on Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:00 am

    First question of politics.
    Hobbes tried to figure it out. He concluded that subjects want to be subjected.
    Before him, Socrates tried to figure it out. He concluded that humans want to be corpses.
    Before him, Cavemen tried to figure it out. They painted fat-assed ladies on their cave-walls.

    Has there been a regression?
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    witchdoctor

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    Re: What Does Man Want?

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:52 am

    If you follow the question of "what does man want" with a question of "why", you always find another want.
    Perhaps it is because man wants to want.
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    Barracuda

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    Re: What Does Man Want?

    Post by Barracuda on Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:35 am

    Yes, the will wills only to will.
    Nietzsche called this power, the power to will willing. To will oneself, which is only a willing.

    In the end though, I am often fulfilled. Oftentimes I have precisely what I was willing for, and more. But I think that "more" is the real fulfillment; one can never imagine reality in all its glory, in advance. It is so often better than expected when one has worked hard for it.

    Perhaps the final will is the will of joy to share itself.
    You'll notice that when it does, it'll often take on the form of fury.

    In Chinese medicine, Joy, the Heart, follows Anger, the Liver.

    Joy-Worry-Sorrow-Fear-Anger-Joy
    Heart-Spleen-Lungs-Kidneys-Liver-Heart
    Red-Yellow/Black-White-Blue-Green-Red
    Fire-Earth-Metal-Water-Wood-Fire

    rather than for example from worry to fear to joy to sorrow to anger to worry - which is also a cycle but not a healthy one. A very widespread one though, I know it from my own manic depressive years.


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    witchdoctor

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    Re: What Does Man Want?

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:38 pm

    Barracuda wrote:
    In the end though, I am often fulfilled. Oftentimes I have precisely what I was willing for, and more. But I think that "more" is the real fulfillment; one can never imagine reality in all its glory, in advance. It is so often better than expected when one has worked hard for it.

    Perhaps the final will is the will of joy to share itself.
    You'll notice that when it does, it'll often take on the form of fury.

    In my previous post I stopped short* of saying that man wants to want because in wholeness, which is the outcome of all wants met, there is belonging together, connection, sharing.

    The common feeling between the object that wants to be subjected, and the caveman painting human likeness on rocks, might be wanting to connect.
    To be comforted from the primal fear from being born in darkness and confusion, into an animal, ripped from the guts of another. Finding again that golden thread that links one with oneself, and with others.

    A will that goes in the opposite direction of that of the animal itself, which is selfish and wants to keep even the excess, in fear that he may go without.




    *because this is a politics forum and not a religion forum.

    Zoot Allures

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    Re: What Does Man Want?

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:19 pm

    what does man want? that's a damn decent question.

    i'd include kierkegaard's division between the aesthete and the ethicist (my neologism) here, as two different stages in life... although they aren't mutually exclusive... but blended. as we approach old age, we tend to lose sight of the importance we feel for physical possessions, the pleasures they bring, and prosperity... then gradually, real existential concerns and priorities come into the foreground. this is the emergence of the ethical stage... and the ethical stage doesn't mean only our moral orientations toward others, but our own approval of ourselves to ourselves. this is a private affair not open to reflection by others. it is a pure subjectivity that is embedded in the passionate more so than the intellectual; we are now entering a stage where we've stopped learning in any substantial way that can change us, and have finally established ourselves, before ourselves... as if we were a third party witness to our own lives.

    the focus then shifts from the external to the internal recognition and sustainment of whatever we promised ourselves, about ourselves. either a person has a resolution and stands by it, or fails to make the transition into the ethical stage from the aesthetic stage, and remains a shallow trifle passing through life superficially.

    now this is not to say that the depth of the resolution has to be significant, although this is different for people, according to their trials in life. a simple person might resolve to keep their job and continue rooting for the Jets even if they lose. another resolves to make his family financially secure, and so on. the defining charateristic of the resolution is that, in general, it will not change; we are past the point of 'finding ourselves', so our investigation into the existential meaning of the world and our lives becomes slowed. we have our convictions, our opinions, and nothing can change them now. there is no age that exists like a line that is crossed upon entering this stage... but it usually occurs around the late thirties. the period in which the future is no longer so uncertain as it was prior to that age. this stage comes with maturity.

    (i should add that i'm combining kierkegaard's second ethical stage with his third, spiritual stage, as i don't distinguish between the two; spiritualization is not a supra-natural stage. it does not, and cannot, transcend the existential immediacy of real life... as in the christian 'giving his life to god.')

    there was some mention of what we want, and some good insight that we may 'want to want', i believe was how it was put, rather than want the object we want.

    this is a peculiar situation that lies between the aesthetic stage and the ethical stage, because the former pertains to objects and the pleasures they give us. the later pertains to 'sticking with it,' so to speak, by creating resolution. in this last stage we no longer want to want... in fact, we are tired of wanting, and for this very reason have passed through the aesthetic stage and into maturity... the beginning of the rest of our lives once we have established ourselves.

    i mean sure, we still 'want' stuff- food, security, entertainment, etc.- but we no longer want... are no longer driven... by the same force that moved us before we found ourselves. in our youth, to be sure, is where we wanted the most... because we hadn't yet gained anything substantial. we were still designing ourselves.

    it was pointed out that one of the strongest forms of 'longing,' if not the strongest, was the longing for connection and togetherness. i cannot deny this. but i would add an equally forceful tonic of emotion; the feeling of violent power, rage, the spirit of revenge, that motivating anger that propels us into our highest heights of feeling. this feeling, rather than the former, invigorates in a more essential way. it expresses directly our individuality, our 'against the world,' and only here do we love ourselves the most. we find our 'theyness' here disposed of and find ourselves again at our best, strongest, most alive.

    the feeling of togetherness is a condition, unlike individuality, that we feel less driven in, but of course it is a tonic feeling... only different and with less force.

    however- and this is a big however- the loss of connection, if and once it is made, can lead to a condition which is of the same tonic force as that feeling of anger and rage. sadness and despair, alienation, estrangement. this is an equally powerful, opposite, emotion that brings ecstasy in its own right.

    have you ever cried during the deepest depths of some depression, and felt a kind of ecstasy on account of the sheer intensity of your feelings? this deepest of depths is a dionysian condition in accord with the apollonian reflectivity of your state; not pure emotion, but pure existential despair, because you understand why you cry. the most intensive of this condition is in the reflection of mortality. nothing else can bring the ecstasy that this epiphany brings. not the loss of a job, not going bankrupt, not losing your house. the only other two conditions that are comparable are the loss of a loved one and the ending of a relationship with a loved one.

    the order of the strength of the tonic emotions:

    1. anger, rage, revenge
    1a. despairing of one's own mortality

    2. connectedness
    2a. loss of loved ones to mortality
    2b. loss of loved ones from relationships

    the only exception to 1a would be a parent's loss of a child to mortality. the intensity of this emotion is higher than the parent's sense of their own motality, and nearly as powerful as 1.

    but to get to my original point, and speaking for myself. what i want the most is to follow through with what i have resolved to do. i don't want to 'learn'... or rather i don't need to learn anymore in the way that i once needed to.

    my aesthetic stage is over. i live a spartan life with only the bare essentials, and care nothing about material wealth. or very little.

    these things do not effect my resolve in any way. it exists regardless.




    Zoot Allures

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    Re: What Does Man Want?

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:40 pm

    edit: i didn't mention laughter in its own right, above, but it is a tonic emotion to be placed among the ranks. it can accompany both connectedness and the malevolence of anger/rage... but it's a different kind of joy in each case.
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    Barracuda

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    Re: What Does Man Want?

    Post by Barracuda on Sat May 12, 2018 11:48 am


    Excellent post.
    I like the division between emotions that are carried by singular entities and those made up of several.

    Rage is like self-valuing through cosmic laws of the monad, connectedness through environmental laws of plurality.



    Laughter - it seems many emotions can amount in laughter. It is an estuary, unlike the word, which is a sheath.


    _________________
    I do not want to be right. I want to believe in you. I want to believe that in this world there is someone who never lies, cheats or compromises, who is always noble. - ᛁᚹᚫᚱ

    Z13

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    Re: What Does Man Want?

    Post by Z13 on Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:54 pm



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