The Pathos of Distance

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The Pathos of Distance

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    Where does meaning come from? Continued

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    encode_decode

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    Where does meaning come from? Continued

    Post by encode_decode on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:57 am

    This could take me a while to express exactly what I am getting at. And since we are bringing this conversation over from another forum I feel it necessary to at least provide a slight overview of the topic. I see something - perhaps I am hallucinating.

    Back when I first asked this question: after asking an associate of mine what he thought, he was prompted after further explanation of what I was trying to convey, to say, whether meaning connects deep down to the fundamental, driving forces of life itself.

    I agree with an "idea isn't necessarily a linguistic event". Why should meaning be a linguistic event? Because we are intimately bound to our own knowledge that we seem to only analyse what we stumble upon or "invent". Representing ideas with symbols.

    One response I received was that meaning is a natural "byproduct" of information. Following this idea(which was a linguistic event) led me to think that information does not require a mind to exist as I think information is a natural byproduct of any event or at least can be.

    We then interpret the meaning that is expressed from the information . . .

    Zoot Allures wrote:if you mean that things are to some extent what they are independent of our knowing them, i'd agree. but do these things 'mean' anything? what do they imply other than the fact that they simply exist?

    I would think many things - the question for me is: do they intend on implying anything? currently I have my doubts but it is possible. So leaving aside suggestions of the supernatural kind I begin to wonder exactly what intention is. Lets leave this aside for now.

    "The fish uses its tail to swim forward." SURE "The fish uses its head to swim backwards."

    Not thinking about where I am going so much as where have I been. Figuratively speaking meaning ends up in our interpretation but starts out somewhere else.

    Zoot Allures

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    Re: Where does meaning come from? Continued

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:41 pm

    encode_decode wrote:he was prompted after further explanation of what I was trying to convey, to say, whether meaning connects deep down to the fundamental, driving forces of life itself.

    is that even a question, i mean. it could turn into a good question, i guess, but as it stands... how would i be able to point at something and say 'now there's an instance of meaning connecting deep down with the fundamental, driving force of life itself'? you have something in mind here when you ask this, but it's not being articulated very well. it's rather obscure. look at the question, think about it, and try to re-ask it in different words. and don't be offended; i have this problem all the time- not being able to put into words clearly what i'm trying to say.

    gotta eat. brb.
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    encode_decode

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    Re: Where does meaning come from? Continued

    Post by encode_decode on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:39 am

    At the moment I am looking at meaning as being componentized. That when it is relatively formed, provides a clearer picture of the information that is represents. Meaning can never be fully formed and relies on some components already contained in the brain from past experience to be useful.
    Zoot Allures wrote:is that even a question, i mean. it could turn into a good question, i guess, but as it stands... how would i be able to point at something and say 'now there's an instance of meaning connecting deep down with the fundamental, driving force of life itself'?
    You are correct - it was not necessarily a question. I think meaning is spread out across existence waiting to be interpreted as neat components that fit together - of course requiring a mind to finish the communication of it to our consciousness. The mind must contain at the very least loose associations ready to complete the picture.
    Zoot Allures wrote:you have something in mind here when you ask this, but it's not being articulated very well. it's rather obscure. look at the question, think about it, and try to re-ask it in different words. and don't be offended; i have this problem all the time- not being able to put into words clearly what i'm trying to say.
    Again you are correct, what I am saying is not being articulated very well. I would say some parts are very obscure. I take no offense to what you are saying at all. Meaning is like a puzzle waiting to be put together into something coherent but to say that it's initial manufacturing starts in the human mind is incorrect. No meaning formed is absolute, it is merely an abstract picture that has been formed that is missing much of the information that would make it absolute.
    All meaning as far as any given being is concerned is incomplete.

    Zoot Allures

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    Re: Where does meaning come from? Continued

    Post by Zoot Allures on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:17 am

    encode_decode wrote:Meaning is like a puzzle waiting to be put together into something coherent, but to say that it's initial manufacturing starts in the human mind is incorrect.

    now you're getting down to the nitty-gritty of it, ED. very nice. how familiar are you with hume and kant? i ask because these two lads went straight to the heart of that question; how does 'meaning' happen? where does it come from? what makes it?
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    Re: Where does meaning come from? Continued

    Post by encode_decode on Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:59 pm

    Zoot Allures wrote:now you're getting down to the nitty-gritty of it, ED. very nice. how familiar are you with hume and kant? i ask because these two lads went straight to the heart of that question; how does 'meaning' happen? where does it come from? what makes it?
    I am probably not as familiar with hume or kant as I should be. I am however inspired by hume's idea of impressions etc.

    Zoot Allures

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    Re: Where does meaning come from? Continued

    Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:10 pm

    you don't have to read kant's critiques or hume's essays concerning human understanding. you'd never make it through... nobody does, unless its a college assignment. kant's writing is dry and dense, extremely technical.. hume's a little easier to read but still long winded. well i mean you have to go the distance when writing about this shit, so they can't be blamed. fortunately they've been interpreted by many philosophers since, so their stuff has been simplified and made easier to swallow. all you really need is a good 'introducing' book... or even wikipedia. excellent resource.

    you might give locke a gander as well. very important empiricist, though hume, the master, had his objections to locke's primary and secondary quality distinctions. you'll see.  

    i don't think anyone should be allowed to even attempt philosophy until they are acquainted with the great empiricists, namely hume, locke and berkeley. it was berkeley, ironically, that forced the empirical position to be reconsidered; he took it to its most logical extreme... but in doing so, he forced empiricism to admit its short comings. surely things exists without being perceived... and some of these things might even be a priori concepts. enter the rationalists.

    the modern era empiricism vs. rationalism battle is the cornerstone of all philosophy. the most important, though not in this order: hume, locke, berkeley, descartes, spinoza, kant, leibniz (some would add bacon... not the meat, the dude).

    now i'm not forgetting the greeks. rather, i'm saying these guys built off the greeks and made the material much more accessible. of course i'd suggest starting with the pre-socratics if you want the full course... but you don't need the full course. you can go straight to the desert if you want.

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    Re: Where does meaning come from? Continued

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