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The Pathos of Distance

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    In which witchdoctor provides medicine

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    Satyr

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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:28 pm

    witchdoctor wrote:You think of consciousness and of self-consciousness as something that one can have/not have, on/off, 0/1.
    I think of consciousness as an analog scale, with infinite points between .00...1 and 1.
    I think of consciousness as a unique and rare configuration of patterns.
    Order is not life.
    Life is a unique and rare configuration of patterns with specific traits, behaviour.

    witchdoctor wrote:The former is a way of thinking that divides (various types). The latter is a way of thinking that unites (one type, various degrees).
    Divisions clarify types.
    Trees are not stones.
    Trees are not animals.
    Gold is not carbon.
    Carbon is not mercury.
    The combination of patterns manifest in a different behaviour. Life has particular traits....like iteration and memory.
    If you can point to how gold stores memory, or why it needs to do so, to remain gold, I'll listen.

    Only in organic life can memory inform behaviour....the past affecting the present.

    witchdoctor wrote:We humans have the same form, thus what is occult to one is occult to all.
    The greatest insight of those who are interested in the occult, is the awareness and acceptance that it exists.
    I do not possess greater knowledge than you. Only greater acceptance.
    Occult implies a hidden order - complexity, which only a few can see.
    Occult can also be sued, by liars and con-artist to imply what he cannot provide, or to only provide words trying to exploit and manipulate human feebleness.

    witchdoctor wrote:Yes, and then, what is to be done with this knowledge, is to decide whether or not to choose a path of resistance, to use your terminology.
    There are many aspects to a path of resistance. In this conversation I am directing my focus to only one: how you relate.
    What is, in relating to others, the path of resistance?
    That which is antagonistic, having a will appropriating the same resources, and that which cares not for your or my needs, because it is unconscious matter unaffected by words.

    Now words externalized into code, as projections of human processes - we call those technology - can be an extension of our will.

    witchdoctor wrote:Relation = inter-action
    Reaction = re-action

    Reaction is a piece of relation. In relation there is input and output, give and take. Reaction is output.
    Yes.

    witchdoctor wrote:You are conflating two diferent things.
    As I said, you can't make an apple taste like a pear by calling an apple a pear. There has been no implication to that effect.
    But you want a stone to be alive?

    witchdoctor wrote:You speak of psychological as though it exists outside of nature.

    Being as you are inserted in a chain of causes and consequences, everything you do influences the events from then on. This is where your transformative power rests, in the influence you exert upon the causal chain.
    I never said outside nature.
    That would be absurd.
    Psychology is the product of organ hierarchies.
    These are determined by the specific survival reproductive and survival strategies of the particular species and how these manifest in the individual.

    But, as organism in Flux, there is an antagonism, the ancients called agon.
    I refer to it as need/suffering.
    Psychology is a reaction to world.

    witchdoctor wrote:I am sorry if I gave off the wrong impression.
    Once again, I approach you most humbly.
    Nice...doctor I am in your hands.

    witchdoctor wrote:The addict does cling to its vice as though the substance itself defines him.
    If your judgment has been made, here I will take my bow.
    Addictions are to the body what obsession are to the mind.
    We can include love-based erotic obsessions or obsessions regarding particular icons of philosophy or business, or spirituality.
    an addictive personality, can become obsessed with the worship of personalities.
    Like Nietzsche for example, who never said anything groundbreaking in regards to philosophy but was a brilliant psychologist.

    The patient can fall in love with his/her doctor. Especially females and undeveloped males....I call those men-children.
    They are usually extra sensitive, often emasculated exhibiting a hyper-masculinity to compensate - bravado, bragging, posturing, and so on.
    These types will become obsessed with certain icons, or pop-cultural idols. so usually they are modern, current, in fashion, following a trend, a fashion.
    A lack of a strong family structure is sometimes the cause. a weak or overbearing father, perhaps. Depends on the particulars.
    Addiction of chemicals may follow.

    I've described this as a annulment of world as either 'too much to handle' seeking refuge in sheltering or mind-numbing ideals and chemicals, becoming addicted to leaders, or anyone offering protection and/or guidance... or a relationship to world as being 'too little, not enough'...a product of over-sheltering, producing ennui and a false sense of self. Over protectiveness creates abundance of energies that needs expunging and an inflated ego that has never faced diversity, and so is burdened with an overestimation of self, destined to be corrected continuously.
    These types are attracted to extremes, adrenaline junkies, they seek chemicals that accentuate and release what they cannot release in any other way - overflowing excess.
    Hyperactive. Narcissism is a byproduct.
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    witchdoctor

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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:32 pm

    GoatMan wrote:
    witchdoctor wrote:You think of consciousness and of self-consciousness as something that one can have/not have, on/off, 0/1.
    I think of consciousness as an analog scale, with infinite points between .00...1 and 1.
    I think of consciousness as a unique and rare configuration of patterns.
    Order is not life.
    Life is a unique and rare configuration of patterns with specific traits, behaviour.

    witchdoctor wrote:The former is a way of thinking that divides (various types). The latter is a way of thinking that unites (one type, various degrees).
    Divisions clarify types.
    Trees are not stones.
    Trees are not animals.
    Gold is not carbon.
    Carbon is not mercury.
    The combination of patterns manifest in a different behaviour. Life has particular traits....like iteration and memory.
    If you can point to how gold stores memory, or why it needs to do so, to remain gold, I'll listen.

    Only in organic life can memory inform behaviour....the past affecting the present.


    If that which lives is made of the same material as what does not live, what extra property not existing in that material must be added to it in order to make it live?
    Is there an unique and rare, magical essense of life which exists outside of matter, and is not an attribute of matter?
    My friend, it sounds like you might be more spiritual than me.





    witchdoctor wrote:We humans have the same form, thus what is occult to one is occult to all.
    The greatest insight of those who are interested in the occult, is the awareness and acceptance that it exists.
    I do not possess greater knowledge than you. Only greater acceptance.
    Occult implies a hidden order - complexity, which only a few can see.
    Occult can also be sued, by liars and con-artist to imply what he cannot provide, or to only provide words trying to exploit and manipulate human feebleness.

    Implies by whom, to who?
    Whoever implied that to you is not here, unless that is you. It was you after all who brought this word into conversation.
    Once again, I do not posess greater knowledge than you.




    witchdoctor wrote:Yes, and then, what is to be done with this knowledge, is to decide whether or not to choose a path of resistance, to use your terminology.
    There are many aspects to a path of resistance. In this conversation I am directing my focus to only one: how you relate.
    What is, in relating to others, the path of resistance?

    That which is antagonistic, having a will appropriating the same resources, and that which cares not for your or my needs, because it is unconscious matter unaffected by words.

    Now words externalized into code, as projections of human processes - we call those technology - can be an extension of our will.  

    I am asking what is the path of resistance when it comes to relating to others. Are we talking about the same thing?





    witchdoctor wrote:You are conflating two diferent things.
    As I said, you can't make an apple taste like a pear by calling an apple a pear. There has been no implication to that effect.
    But you want a stone to be alive?

    No, we cannot change the nature of a rock by saying "this rock is alive" or by saying "this rock is not alive". We do not disagree about this.





    witchdoctor wrote:You speak of psychological as though it exists outside of nature.

    Being as you are inserted in a chain of causes and consequences, everything you do influences the events from then on. This is where your transformative power rests, in the influence you exert upon the causal chain.
    I never said outside nature.
    That would be absurd.
    Psychology is the product of organ hierarchies.  
    These are determined by the specific survival reproductive and survival strategies of the particular species and how these manifest in the individual.

    But, as organism in Flux, there is an antagonism, the ancients called agon.
    I refer to it as need/suffering.
    Psychology is a reaction to world.

    It is a reaction, and also a cause, as is everything.




    witchdoctor wrote:I am sorry if I gave off the wrong impression.
    Once again, I approach you most humbly.
    Nice...doctor I am in your hands.

    I will take this to mean a willingness to withold negative judgment until it becomes clear that we disagree.




    witchdoctor wrote:The addict does cling to its vice as though the substance itself defines him.
    If your judgment has been made, here I will take my bow.

    Addictions are to the body what obsession are to the mind.
    We can include love-based erotic obsessions or obsessions regarding particular icons of philosophy or business, or spirituality.
    an addictive personality, can become obsessed with the worship of personalities.
    Like Nietzsche for example, who never said anything groundbreaking in regards to philosophy but was a brilliant psychologist.

    The patient can fall in love with his/her doctor. Especially females and undeveloped males....I call those men-children.
    They are usually extra sensitive, often emasculated exhibiting a hyper-masculinity to compensate - bravado, bragging, posturing, and so on.
    These types will become obsessed with certain icons, or pop-cultural idols. so usually they are modern, current, in fashion, following a trend, a fashion.  
    A lack of a strong family structure is sometimes the cause. a weak or overbearing father, perhaps. Depends on the particulars.
    Addiction of chemicals may follow.

    I've described this as a annulment of world as either 'too much to handle' seeking refuge in sheltering or mind-numbing ideals and chemicals, becoming addicted to leaders, or anyone offering protection and/or guidance... or a relationship to world as being 'too little, not enough'...a product of over-sheltering, producing ennui and a false sense of self. Over protectiveness creates abundance of energies that needs expunging and an inflated ego that has never faced diversity, and so is burdened with an overestimation of self, destined to be corrected continuously.
    These types are attracted to extremes, adrenaline junkies, they seek chemicals that accentuate and release what they cannot release in any other way - overflowing excess.
    Hyperactive. Narcissism is a byproduct.

    Your agenda in coming to this forum is nothing to me.
    Please, send this piece of writing to whom it was written.
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    Satyr

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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:17 pm

    Something familiar about you...
    witchdoctor wrote:If that which lives is made of the same material as what does not live, what extra property not existing in that material must be added to it in order to make it live?
    What we call elements are combinations of patterns.
    Life is a combination of patterns.
    Consciousness is an emergent property from specific combinations of patterns.  

    Metal does not pre-exist existence.....it is a combination of patterns, brought into balance under specific circumstances.
    The unity can only be torn asunder by a force exceeding the attraction force within this unity.
    All unities have both attraction/repulsion - tensions. They become balanced only when the attractive force, harmony, exceeds the repulsive force, disharmony.
    The apparent is a combination of patterns.

    witchdoctor wrote:Is there an unique and rare, magical essense of life which exists outside of matter, and is not an attribute of matter?
    You describe life as a magical element...like matter/energy.
    Matter is not life.
    Life is a particular and rare combination of matter, with a specific process of iteration and storage of memory that informs its iteration, and this may develop into an organism.
    An organization we call life.

    I deal in probabilities. If you are looking for a certainty about how life emerges, you ought to look elsewhere...or, perhaps you ought to tell us.
    Idiots always declare extraordinary knowledge.
    I came across an interesting psychological effect named  Dunning-Kruger Effect.
    The more ignorant and simple minded you are, the more certain of your positions you are.  
    My mysticism is reality itself.
    Don't need to add to it word-games to fabricate mysticism.
    another interesting fact about psychology.
    The smart mind seems magical, incomprehensible to the simple mind...to a dog a human must seem a god.
    This means that a desperate liar can intentionally cultivate mysticism to appear magical to the average.

    A mind that understands what it understands can express thus understanding in multiple ways to clarify, to bring forth and to simplify....a mind that is clueless and pretends to understand more than he does always uses convoluted language to obscure his ignorance and promote the lie of his understanding to simpletons.

    witchdoctor wrote:My friend, it sounds like you might be more spiritual than me.
    I am spiritual, but I am not irrational.

    witchdoctor wrote:Implies by whom, to who?
    Whoever implied that to you is not here, unless that is you. It was you after all who brought this word into conversation.
    Once again, I do not posess greater knowledge than you.
    the word occult implies it.
    Like matter having a magical property which is life. You appear to have knowledge only a few posses....mystical knowledge.
    You know matter is living, so every rock is alive...or are you not saying this?  

    witchdoctor wrote:I am asking what is the path of resistance when it comes to relating to others. Are we talking about the same thing?
    Is this a mystery to you?
    The one willing to adjust to other,makes the other less resistant.
    Flattery, praise....adjusting self to accommodate other, reduces the other's resistance.
    Spontaneous harmony of similar goals, attitudes, demeanour, is also a form of harmony.

    Weininger made attractions into a formula...80% male 20% female is attracted to 20% male 80% female.
    I think its a bit more complex because the self-appraisal of the individual factors into what he or she is attracted to.  

    witchdoctor wrote:No, we cannot change the nature of a rock by saying "this rock is alive" or by saying "this rock is not alive". We do not disagree about this.
    But, for you, a rock has life, or the element of consciousness.
    Consciousness is like a particle, an element.

    witchdoctor wrote:It is a reaction, and also a cause, as is everything.
    (Inter)Action.

    witchdoctor wrote:I will take this to mean a willingness to withold negative judgment until it becomes clear that we disagree.
    You can take it in any way you like.

    witchdoctor wrote:Your agenda in coming to this forum is nothing to me.
    Please, send this piece of writing to whom it was written.
    I use all for multiple purposes.
    I am discussing with you, and sending messages to others.
    I'm efficient.

    My agenda is to save what is being corrupted...for my sake.
    Stupidity has been given too much leeway for far too long.
    It is now droning us all.
    like a herd that is protected from predators...they become soft, happy, and sick. Mutation adding to mutation, never being challenged.....sheltered, creating dis-ease.

    This memetic virus, this linguistic parasite lingers and then grows strong in time of decay.  
    We are in that time.
    I'm the antidote that immunizes against nihilism and those infected by it.
    First agenda
    A mission. A duty, to my kind.

    Second agenda...studying human kind.
    My pleasure. My hobby.
    I forget which came first or is primary and which is secondary.

    Third agenda... entertainment, psychological predation.
    Seeking out weakness and exploiting it for whatever reason.
    I particularly like arrogant feebleness. Those that underestimate me, and others, and overestimate themselves.  
    I have a particular taste for such minds. I like to watch them suffer defeat, after reality check, after excuses....on and on.  

    I always have plan-A....plan-B....plan-C...

    Allow me to expose myself....and let us see where we go from there.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:24 pm

    GoatMan wrote:
    witchdoctor wrote:If that which lives is made of the same material as what does not live, what extra property not existing in that material must be added to it in order to make it live?

    What we call elements are combinations of patterns.
    Life is a combination of patterns.
    Consciousness is an emergent property from specific combinations of patterns.  

    Metal does not pre-exist existence.....it is a combination of patterns, brought into balance under specific circumstances.
    The unity can only be torn asunder by a force exceeding the attraction force within this unity.
    All unities have both attraction/repulsion - tensions. They become balanced only when the attractive force, harmony, exceeds the repulsive force, disharmony.
    The apparent is a combination of patterns.

    We agree.
    Life and consciousness both emanate from nature. The nature we understand as matter, because we are matter.
    There is no essense outside from nature which creates life and consciousness.
    There is agreement here. We are not saying different things.


    witchdoctor wrote:Is there an unique and rare, magical essense of life which exists outside of matter, and is not an attribute of matter?

    You describe life as a magical element...like matter/energy.

    I don't think that I do. Are matter-energy magical?


    Matter is not life.

    Life emanates from matter.


    Life is a particular and rare combination of matter, with a specific process of iteration and storage of memory that informs its iteration, and this may develop into an organism.
    An organization we call life.


    We agree. The only difference apparent to me is that you seem to hold the opinion that life, consciousness, and intelligence are attributes one can either have, or not have, like flipping a switch. One either has life, or does not have life. One either has consciousness, or does not have consciousness. One either has intelligence, or does not have intelligence.

    I believe that these attributes exist in an infinitely gradual scale, in all shades of grey from near-white to near-black.




    witchdoctor wrote:Implies by whom, to who?
    Whoever implied that to you is not here, unless that is you. It was you after all who brought this word into conversation.
    Once again, I do not posess greater knowledge than you.

    the word occult implies it.
    Like matter having a magical property which is life. You appear to have knowledge only a few posses....mystical knowledge.

    Who said anything about occult to begin whith?
    I deny having knowledge that only a few possess.
    The things I say have been written about for millenia. They are available to all.
    You cannot claim that you never received a package if you've only glanced at it, and then threw it away.


    You know matter is living, so every rock is alive...or are you not saying this?  

    No. Not alive as you seem to conceive of it.
    I say that rock has the potential to an ever increasing level of aliveness.
    At which state of alivenes it might be, nobody can say. If you are looking for a certainty about how life emerges, you ought to look elsewhere... to paraphrase a friend.




    witchdoctor wrote:No, we cannot change the nature of a rock by saying "this rock is alive" or by saying "this rock is not alive". We do not disagree about this.

    But, for you, a rock has life, or the element of consciousness.
    Consciousness is like a particle, an element.

    No. Consciousness is an attribute of matter.
    Regardless, what I think does not change the nature of a rock.




    witchdoctor wrote:I am asking what is the path of resistance when it comes to relating to others. Are we talking about the same thing?

    Is this a mystery to you?
    The one willing to adjust to other,makes the other less resistant.
    Flattery, praise....adjusting self to accommodate other, reduces the other's resistance.
    Spontaneous harmony of similar goals, attitudes, demeanour, is also a form of harmony.
     

    Willing to adjust to the other...
    One who is struck, and who strucks back, is in a path-of-least-resistance.
    He merely reacts thoughtlesly, drunk with the chemicals produced by his body.
    When the chemicals wear off and he is faced with the outcomes of his words-actions, he justifies to himself: "I was beaten, I was abused".
    Anchored by his reason he feels right to himself. Thus he remains, powerless and adrift in a perpetual chain of cause and effect, doing no more than to be carried by it.

    The path of resistance:

    Who bears within no enmity:
    "He has abused and beaten me,
    defeated me and plundered me",
    hate is quite allayed for them.

    Never here by enmity
    are those with enmity allayed,
    they are allayed by amity,
    this is the timeless Truth.



    When you feel right, and in that feeling you find yourself justified to inflict suffering upon another, remember that you are mortal. Your righteousness and your feelings will perish. The only thing that remains of you is what you caused.
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    Satyr

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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:54 pm

    witchdoctor wrote:We agree.
    Life and consciousness both emanate from nature. The nature we understand as matter, because we are matter.
    There is no essense outside from nature which creates life and consciousness.
    There is agreement here. We are not saying different things.
    I doubt it....we agree superficially.

    Matter = patterns slower than the metabolic rate of the organism perceiving.
    Energy = patterns faster than the metabolic rate of the organism perceiving.

    Matter is a term denoting faster patterns, relative to the metabolic rates of the organism, or its brain processes....cellular systolic/diastolic rates.
    Matter is not a uniform substance, a magical thing that is all things.
    Gold is not silver.
    Water is not blood.
    Matter is not magic, not a singular thing, substance...it is a word meaning speed of vibration/oscillation, interpreted by mind as rock, metal, tree.
    Energy also is a speed of vibration/oscillation....of different kinds - eidos.
    The rhythms determines the kind, the speed determines if it will be interpreted as solid or airy or liquid or faster, as energy.

    witchdoctor wrote:I don't think that I do. Are matter-energy magical?
    Does matter/energy mean life?
    Matter/Energy is not life....as it is not automatically gold or silver.  

    There is no life energy.
    There is life that emanates energy....called aura.
    Bio-energy.  

    witchdoctor wrote:Life emanates from matter.
    None of your magic talk, ya here.
    Matter does not emanate goldness, or silver, not bone, nor flesh nor life.
    Nice try though.
    Matter only means patterns that vibrate/oscillate at a slower rate than energy.
    There are intermediate rates, called liquid, gas.
    So we have these general groups of speed: matter, liquid, gas, energy...that we can perceive with our senses.
    Like the light spectrum goes from Ultra Violet to Infrared and beyond - Electromagnetism.
    No life in light.
    We also have the sound spectrum.
    No life force there either.

    witchdoctor wrote:We agree. The only difference apparent to me is that you seem to hold the opinion that life, consciousness, and intelligence are attributes one can either have, or not have, like flipping a switch. One either has life, or does not have life. One either has consciousness, or does not have consciousness. One either has intelligence, or does not have intelligence.
    No switch.
    Life is a particular configuration of patterns....patterns that are slow are called matter; patterns that are fast are called energy.

    Different configurations are translated as gold, or silver, or water, or stones. These are not alive.
    Different configurations of patterns, producing the multiplicity of elements.
    Life is such a configuration with specific unique and rare traits = iteration and memory.
    Now, how the process of memory storage began will be determined by science.

    But it must have to do with  fractals...like the Mandelbrot Set....from a simple iterating algorithm ({f{c}(z)=z^{2}+c} )complex repeating shapes emerge.

    witchdoctor wrote:I believe that these attributes exist in an infinitely gradual scale, in all shades of grey from near-white to near-black.
    Yes, little sprites hidden in the matter. A universal soul emanating from matter.
    There is no life particle, no spirit.
    Your occult mind is finally revealed.
    No hidden secret in matter. No magical entity.

    Spirit means what precedes the birth of an organism.

    witchdoctor wrote:Who said anything about occult to begin whith?
    I deny having knowledge that only a few possess.
    The things I say have been written about for millenia. They are available to all.
    You cannot claim that you never received a package if you've only glanced at it, and then threw it away.
    I've learned to read books by looking at their weathered and torn covers.
    Again...patterns...you send data despite yourself.

    witchdoctor wrote:No. Not alive as you seem to conceive of it.
    I say that rock has the potential to an ever increasing level of aliveness.
    At which state of alivenes it might be, nobody can say. If you are looking for a certainty about how life emerges, you ought to look elsewhere... to paraphrase a friend.
    Then you believe in ghosts and spirits.
    A stones can be explained without evoking will, or judgment, or intent....no telos, no motive.
    A stone is not alive, nor can it ever be so.
    The elements participating in stones can be part of a configuration that may become alive....The human body is 70% water...water is not alive.
    Romantic idealism betrays you.

    witchdoctor wrote:No. Consciousness is an attribute of matter.
    Ha!!
    So it is like carbon...consciousness is a particle.
    Can you show us one.
    Declaring it as existing in all things is your belief in Abrahamic God.

    Patterns are everywhere...you have a mysterious life force which you simply state as existing.

    witchdoctor wrote:Regardless, what I think does not change the nature of a rock.
    No kidding.
    You can say magical pixies are part of matter.....so what?
    You say nothing about nothing. You imagine shit and you project your internal desires. You expose yourself.
    You speak not of world. You speak of your reaction to world.
    Your hopes, your desires.
    If a someone declares to me, with an air of sophisticated rationalism, that spirits are cause storms, or clouds are monsters, he's doing the exact same thing you are.

    witchdoctor wrote:Is this a mystery to you?
    The one willing to adjust to other,makes the other less resistant.
    Flattery, praise....adjusting self to accommodate other, reduces the other's resistance.
    Spontaneous harmony of similar goals, attitudes, demeanour, is also a form of harmony.
    And yet you fell for self-comforting, projecting into world what primitives did in their ignorance, using their anxious superstitions.
    they could not comprehend earthquakes...they feared them. So they imagined monsters, gods, in the earth.
     
    witchdoctor wrote:Willing to adjust to the other...
    One who is struck, and who strucks back, is in a path-of-least-resistance.
    He merely reacts thoughtlesly, drunk with the chemicals produced by his body.
    When the chemicals wear off and he is faced with the outcomes of his words-actions, he justifies to himself: "I was beaten, I was abused".
    Anchored by his reason he feels right to himself. Thus he remains, powerless and adrift in a perpetual chain of cause and effect, doing no more than to be carried by it.
    Have you been beaten and abused, or have you abused and beaten me....HA!!

    Here come the poetics of a sensitive soul....

    witchdoctor wrote:
    The path of resistance:

    Who bears within no enmity:
    "He has abused and beaten me,
    defeated me and plundered me",
    hate is quite allayed for them.

    Never here by enmity
    are those with enmity allayed,
    they are allayed by amity,
    this is the timeless Truth.
    Nice retribution.
    Resentiment is in you.

    witchdoctor wrote:When you feel right, and in that feeling you find yourself justified to inflict suffering upon another, remember that you are mortal. Your righteousness and your feelings will perish. The only thing that remains of you is what you caused.
    Appealing to fear, now?
    When all else fails appeal to mortality, to weakness....bend the will with emotion.

    Listen, philosophy is not for you.
    You are a poet, you project into world your art, your self, hoping someone will see, appreciate you as you; love you unconditionally; forgive and take care of you.
    The world is harsh, indifferent, threatening...not meant for sensitive souls. It take a hard soul to accept what one sees, or to bear the fact that what he seeks is not there.
    Intelligence is not enough.
    You need stamina to endure, and courage to peer into the real, without seeing yourself reflected back.
    You are no witch doctor, you are a soothsayer.

    I think I'm done with you, for now.
    Please feel free to diagnose me, my motives or to tell me more about this secret life-force in matter.

    Life can be explained without such contrivances.
    In the old days the mysterious was explained by projecting into it human spirits, gods: storms were gods, rivers, oceans, mountains.
    Darkness was full of spirits, ghosts...volcanoes were monsters rumbling...
    The layman needed these reductions.
    Average minds have always needed metaphorical narratives to comfort and sooth them before the unknown.
    This is what Abrahamism offered. A narrative the mediocre mind can understand, and through which certain social norms could be taught - moral tales, each with a social, political lesson.


    Last edited by GoatMan on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:57 pm

    Edit:

    Given that you have not understood a single thing I said, I will give you sufficient time to read again as many times as it takes, and then reply again, with calm and thoughtfulness, to what I wrote alone.
    I will be here, and my time is yours once you have demonstrated that it is worth to you at least as much as it is to me.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:19 pm

    witchdoctor wrote:Edit:
    Given that you have not understood a single thing I said, I will give you sufficient time to read again as many times as it takes, and then reply again, with calm and thoughtfulness, to what I wrote alone.
    I will be here, and my time is yours once you have demonstrated that it is worth to you at least as much as it is to me.
    As you wish.
    I will peer into matter and find the life there waiting to emerge.

    When all else fails...when emotional appeals, threats fail to have an impact...use ignorance.
    'You simply did not understand'.
    I, on the other hand, think you did understand me. Because what I say is clear, testable and rational.
    But for you, as for many others, it simply is not enough. You want more. Something more inspiring, mystifying, hope-giving....deep and obscure.
    Something only a few can truly feel.

    The occult has always been misunderstood by the ones that rejected it....like Christians claim that non-believers either hate god, or they do not get it.
    It shows in your change in attitude, especially the poetics towards the end.
    If you want to believe in life as secretly nestled in matter....don't let me stop you.
    You will find an audience...no doubt.
    World is full of cowards, idiots and hypocrites.
    They've been around forever, always the majority...believing in all sorts of wacky stuff.
    Always modern, up-to-date with the latest superposition. Always trendy and enlightened...hippies.
    Pass the bong and let's feel the life emanating from matter.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:33 pm


    I, on the other hand, think you did understand me. Because what I say is clear, testable and rational.

    I'm sorry to say this, but I did not understand you. What you say is not clear, nor testable, nor rational.


    How is it rational? Either all is nature, or not all is nature. It can't be both.
    At the same time that you acknowledge that there is nothing outside of nature, you do not accept life and consciousness as an attribute of matter.
    You continue to repeat that life and consciousness are organization and patterns. Of what?
    How is any of what you say testable?


    But for you, as for many others, it simply is not enough. You want more. Something more inspiring, mystifying, hope-giving....deep and obscure.
    Something only a few can truly feel.

    It is evident from my reasoning that I am the one who is materialist, not you.


    The occult has always been misunderstood by the ones that rejected it....like Christians claim that non-believers either hate god, or they do not get it.

    You arrived at this thread, barely skimmed through what I wrote, labeled me occultist, and are talking to people who are not here.
    It appears to me that you are the one who is chasing ghosts.
    The experience of conversation is happening here and now between you and me, but you are writing to the past and to the future, while wasting the present.


    It shows in your change in attitude, especially the poetics towards the end.

    I have not changed my attitude for a single moment during this thread, except for this paragraph and the paragraph right above this one, in which I am criticizing your behavior in this thread. I've deleted many of your insults without responding, directed at me and at others who I don't know who they are. I will bring this up to you here once, and then never again.

    If you want to believe in life as secretly nestled in matter....don't let me stop you.

    Where, then, is life nestled, if not in matter?



    You will find an audience...no doubt.
    World is full of cowards, idiots and hypocrites.
    They've been around forever, always the majority...believing in all sorts of wacky stuff.
    Always modern, up-to-date with the latest superposition. Always trendy and enlightened...hippies.
    Pass the bong and let's feel the life emanating from matter.

    Life emanating from matter, humans descending from monkeys, diseases caused by living things you can't see, all these whacky absurd things that require a person to get rid of his pre-conceptions and prejudices if only for a moment, and approach the subject with interest, good will, and an open mind. Innovation does not proceed from fanatic attachment to dogma. It proceeds from looking at the world with a child's eyes, and imagining what it might be.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:49 pm

    witchdoctor wrote:
    I'm sorry to say this, but I did not understand you. What you say is not clear, nor testable, nor rational.

    How is it rational? Either all is nature, or not all is nature. It can't be both.
    Who said anything about life being unnatural?
    I gave a metaphorical narrative in the other thread to help you.

    witchdoctor wrote:At the same time that you acknowledge that there is nothing outside of nature, you do not accept life and consciousness as an attribute of matter.
    I've defined matter.
    it's not a magical substance. It does not have life as an attribute.
    Matter is not life.
    Matter and energy can configure to become life, but it is not automatically life.  

    witchdoctor wrote:You continue to repeat that life and consciousness are organization and patterns. Of what?
    Bingo!!
    Rhythmic oscillation/vibration is a pattern.
    What is vibrating?
    Space.
    What is space?
    Possibility.
    Matter/Energy can now be defined as probabilities within the field of possibilities.

    Mind interprets different patterns as different kinds of matter/energy.

    witchdoctor wrote:How is any of what you say testable?
    Can you not see patterns?
    If we look into the thickest metal using powerful microscopes, what do we see?
    The life element?

    witchdoctor wrote:It is evident from my reasoning that I am the one who is materialist, not you.
    I never called myself a materialist.
    You are a magic materialist...you see magical essences in matter.

    witchdoctor wrote:You arrived at this thread, barely skimmed through what I wrote, labeled me occultist, and are talking to people who are not here.
    It appears to me that you are the one who is chasing ghosts.
    The experience of conversation is happening here and now between you and me, but you are writing to the past and to the future, while wasting the present.
    No, I responded to everything you wrote.
    When you said life emanates from matter...I knew what you are.
    A magical aura emanating from all matter....called life. All is alive.

    witchdoctor wrote:Where, then, is life nestled, if not in matter?
    I gave you my definition of matter/energy.
    Life does not emanate from all matter....it is a particular configuration of matter/energy.

    Matter simply means patterns with a particular speeds of oscillation.
    Like ultra violet...means light at a particular side of the spectrum with a specific frequency range.
    Energy would be the equivalent of the infrared.

    witchdoctor wrote:Life emanating from matter, humans descending from monkeys, diseases caused by living things you can't see, all these whacky absurd things that require a person to get rid of his pre-conceptions and prejudices if only for a moment, and approach the subject with interest, good will, and an open mind. Innovation does not proceed from fanatic attachment to dogma. It proceeds from looking at the world with a child's eyes, and imagining what it might be.
    Life emanating from matter is the same as humans evolved from the same ancestor as other primates?
    You mix a magical notion with a scientific one hoping to get away with it?
    Is a stone alive?
    Is life emanating from water?
    Don't show me magnetic fields and tell me that is life energy emanating...word-game will not work on me.

    Show me the science...since it is equivalent to evolution theory.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:09 pm

    I do not wish to continue this conversation in this thread. It is off topic.
    The subject of life and consciousness started as a diversion, and now has central focus.
    I'll start a thread in the metaphysics forum to continue this conversation.

    I would like to return the focus of the conversation to relations.



    One who is struck, and who strikes back, is in a path-of-least-resistance.
    He merely reacts thoughtlessly, drunk with the chemicals produced by his body.
    When the chemicals wear off and he is faced with the outcomes of his words-actions, he justifies to himself: "I was beaten, I was abused".
    Anchored by his reason he feels right to himself. Thus he remains, powerless and adrift in a perpetual chain of cause and effect, doing no more than to be carried by it.

    The path of resistance:

    Who bears within no enmity:
    "He has abused and beaten me,
    defeated me and plundered me",
    hate is quite allayed for them.

    Never here by enmity
    are those with enmity allayed,
    they are allayed by amity,
    this is the timeless Truth.


    When you feel right, and in that feeling you find yourself justified to inflict suffering upon another, remember that you are mortal. Your righteousness and your feelings will perish. The only thing that remains of you is what you caused.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:14 pm

    Let me use more scientific imagery to help you in your spiritual romanticism and superstitions.

    Big Bang creates a field of energy.
    Let's call it the fabric of existence.
    This is dynamic...at no point is it absolute one or absolute nil.
    It is radiating.

    This energy interacts in certain ways....life does not emanate from ti like a mystical cloud.
    This dynamic energy field is not uniform...it is not one, not complete, not whole.
    All we can say about it is that it is dynamic.

    Life is not automatic.
    In infinite space time in multiple universe, or multiple cycles of the cosmos life does not emerge in all and everywhere.
    It would be everywhere if this were so.
    We know life is rare, so we know specific circumstances are necessary for it to emerge.
    It is not ubiquitous.
    We also know it is fragile, it needs specific balances to continue.
    It does not magically emanate from all matter.
    Matter and energy are necessary, but life is not necessary to matter/energy.

    Like gold does not just happen, it does not emanate from matter but is formed under particular circumstances, so too does life emerge from a configuration of matter/energy with specific attributes.

    Life is not an attribute of matter like say solidity, or form.
    Solidity is the relationship of the conscious organism to a slow pattern....we interpret this slowness as solid. our brain constructs form as an interpretation of a unity's range of effect.
    If we look closer the boundary shifts or disappears into a multiplicity of particles....because the mind creates abstractions by freezing patterns into what we call 'things'.
    There's no mystical life trait emanating from all matter.



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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:18 pm

    witchdoctor wrote:I do not wish to continue this conversation in this thread. It is off topic.
    The subject of life and consciousness started as a diversion, and now has central focus.
    I'll start a thread in the metaphysics forum to continue this conversation.

    I would like to return the focus of the conversation to relations.



    One who is struck, and who strikes back, is in a path-of-least-resistance.
    He merely reacts thoughtlessly, drunk with the chemicals produced by his body.
    When the chemicals wear off and he is faced with the outcomes of his words-actions, he justifies to himself: "I was beaten, I was abused".
    Anchored by his reason he feels right to himself. Thus he remains, powerless and adrift in a perpetual chain of cause and effect, doing no more than to be carried by it.

    The path of resistance:

    Who bears within no enmity:
    "He has abused and beaten me,
    defeated me and plundered me",
    hate is quite allayed for them.

    Never here by enmity
    are those with enmity allayed,
    they are allayed by amity,
    this is the timeless Truth.


    When you feel right, and in that feeling you find yourself justified to inflict suffering upon another, remember that you are mortal. Your righteousness and your feelings will perish. The only thing that remains of you is what you caused.
    I strike back at stupidity that has been given too much 'benefit of the doubt, passes, and is now rising to drown reason in superstition.
    Too much has already been lost by taking fools seriously and humouring their mystical gibberish.
    Look at what is occurring....men claim to be female spirits trapped in male bodies....too much has been lost to civility and respecting infantile ideas with ulterior motives.
    Things have gone too far.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:44 pm

    GoatMan wrote:
    I strike back at stupidity that has been given too much 'benefit of the doubt, passes, and is now rising to drown reason in superstition.
    Too much has already been lost by taking fools seriously and humouring their mystical gibberish.
    Look at what is occurring....men claim to be female spirits trapped in male bodies....too much has been lost to civility and respecting infantile ideas with ulterior motives.
    Things have gone too far.

    Striking back only causes more strikes to occur.
    Rather than abate stupidity, whichever it may be, it only causes the other to feel more strongly opposed to you, and therefore more strongly in favor of their stupidity.
    Honesty as love for truth can never be effective when presented with force.
    It is by means of the heart that you are able to direct them away from stupidity, not by the means of the fists and tongue.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:52 pm

    Too much has been lost to compassion and civility.
    Too much.

    You sought your kind and you found them.

    Forgive me...I mistook you for someone else.

    Sounding boards vibrate when being struck by a hammer, or when you scream at them loud enough.
    You watch the reaction, and you gauge its essence.
    Sometimes you see something familiar..and you stop.
    Sometimes you hit harder.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:10 am


    What has been lost to compassion and civility?
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:11 am

    Nobility.
    Reason.
    Common sense.


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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:34 am

    Trust in our senses.
    Honesty.
    Admiring and being inspired by the superior.
    Responsibility.
    Connection to world.
    Nature.
    The past.




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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:11 am

    Indeed, these are qualities lacking in the world, but not due to compassion, but the lack of it.
    Compassion is not synonym with permissiveness.
    A father's love of his child does not prevent him from ruling his home.
    The love and respect a child receives in his home forms his bond to his father's values.
    Likewise, the child that is oppressed in his home turns away from its values.
    Only through compassion can one grip the reigns of a strong will.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:17 am

    Ah, so you are on-board with my Love Ontology. I've already impregnated you with my loving loveliness.
    All love lovingly loves loving.
    Love will save the world....the great equalizer.
    We are all born of love, through love, open to love....tabula rasa...and are written upon lovingly, or we are corrupted with hate.
    All born with the same capacity to love and be loved.
    Shaped by environment to be loving or hateful.  

    All nurture, no nature.
    All is social engineering.
    Another great sage taught me that.
    We are all products of our social upbringing. Why the conflict when we can love?
    Love is about making compromises, for the greater love.  

    So, matter emanates love, we can say.


    Last edited by GoatMan on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:21 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:20 am

    No.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:23 am

    No?
    No, matter does not emanate love?
    No, all is not loving nurturing love?

    So negative. We have a lot of work to do.
    Open your heart and feel my truth.

    Love Ontological Lust, is eloquent, magical....radical.


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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:31 am

    How is one to treat a person who talks of the loss of reason and nobility, and yet spends his living time and energy making a mockery of the noblest of feelings?

    One that behaves as a disrespectful child ought to be treated as such.

    To find all that is wrong in the world, all one needs to do is to look at himself.
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:36 am

    witchdoctor wrote:How is one to treat a person who talks of the loss of reason and nobility, and yet spends his living time and energy making a mockery of the noblest of feelings?
    In the same way one treats a romantic idealist lost in feelings?

    One is not noble when it shows compassion to a stunted mind declaring itself god.
    This is misdirected nobility.
    Nobility recognizes what is worthy and gives its love and loyalty and compassion to that.
    Nobility is discriminating. Not a whore disseminating its whore's love to one and all.
    Nobility values its love and compassion and loyalty too much to squander it.

    witchdoctor wrote:One that behaves as a disrespectful child ought to be treated as such.

    To find all that is wrong in the world, all one needs to do is to look at himself.
    When I am surrounded by simpletons, I do not resist them, trying to change what they are....as when I am in the midst of a sheep herd.
    I go their way, gradually aiming for the periphery where I may extricate myself, or I enjoy their companionship, for a while.
    Their white warmness can be pleasant.

    Is matter emanating love?

    If compassion can save the world, then will all be made the same if the same nurturing is applied uniformly?
    Will we create a Utopia of love, if we love all indiscriminately and equally, making no prejudiced judgments?  
    Will a good family raise the same kind of good boy and girl?


    Last edited by GoatMan on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:48 am

    This is not a joke, it is a serious question....
    Can compassion, as you understand it, create uniform outcomes?
    Can we heal the world of its inequalities, its conflicts, using compassion?
    If we are compassionate to a less intelligent person, will he become a genius?
    Can we stop a terrorist, infected with the mental disease, infested with the psychological parasite, named Islam, with compassion?

    Can we apply this broadly to other species?
    Can we raise apes, for example, to the level of humans if we treat them with kindness?
    Are all natural divisions the product of a lack of compassion?
    Is suffering the result of this lack?
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    Re: In which witchdoctor provides medicine

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:00 am

    If you humour weakness on the ground that you feel compassion for its deplorable state, you let it flourish and grow, and eventually you are drowned by it, while you expect it to reciprocate for the compassion you gave it.

    This altruism is what is going to make European men extinct.
    This compassion is drowning European peoples in seas of brown immigration.
    Universally applied love, and compassion is a weakness.
    We would die of starvation if we felt compassion for every living thing.
    Survival is about focused emotions.

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