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Note to the Witchdoctor

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Barracuda

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Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Barracuda on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:46 pm

Or not so much of a note as a post I wrote long ago under an alias to fool Sauwelios as I remember, which I retrieved now and which made me smile.
I hope, you will like!

One Christmassy Eve

Greetings to all.

I am happy to enter into the symposium of this establishment and to carry the honor that my Lord has kept for me, and that I have kept for my lord, before your eyes.
I am a resident of this planet, swirling in the outer rings of this galaxy, from nowhere to nowhere where it will never arive, always in the eternal present. I have learned things, forgotten much, remembered some, and am here to share what I have remembered in order to be reminded of what I have forgotten; I am here, as I am everywhere where I am, to sow and to reap.
About most things I am in doubt, but I know certain things for certain. The greatest of these connot be conveyed in prose, and as I am no poet, they will remain with me in my heart. But the most alerting of truths can be shared with ease, because it is as base a truth as truths come:
Our world is suffering as she should not suffer, and all of us men with the power to discern, bear in part the terrible responsibility for truths to grim to contemplate. And our Lord who looks to all his children with the kindest love at the same time judges all those who violate His body with the uncompromising sword of justice.
If the world dies, we perish with it. The world's agony shall be our torture. Inversely, the worlds healing shall be our redemption. So teaches the law of cause and effect, also known as <i>karma</i>

I am here to work on my karma. I am here to clarify my purposes to myself, in the hope of cooperation from strong ad virile souldiers who take the destiny of the world in their hands or on their shouders and who fear neither pain nor death.
For pain and death are two certainties without which life cannot exist, and he who seeks to avoid them is like poison to the Earth.Here I come at my first conjecture, so far all I have said I kow to be certain, but this is a venture; desire for painlessness causes the Earth and it's people to perish. It is so because pain is a fact of life.
Deisre for painlessness is a virtue of many modern philosophies, especially the lustful ones of modernity. Where did this virtue come from? When did man begin to scorn pain? I find myself in a most difficult situation, wanting to overcome my weaknesses. This is the reason I have come here to seek counsel. I am here in the hope that there are wise people who have learned to live with the realities of the world, and who are generous with their wisdom. I am an aspirant. I seek to learn from masterful natures who know of dicipline.

Thanks.
abhi-pratapta


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Barracuda

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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Barracuda on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:52 pm

the prank goes on and bears fruit once more

Jakob wrote:
Hi abhi-pratapta,
It is not exactly clear to me what you are here to learn. I'm not exacty a grealty diciplined individual most of the time but if you would specify what you would like to find out, I would be glad to share some of what I think I know in exchange for some of your knowledge.
I like the quote in your signature. Is that Mahavatar Babaji the same Babaji as the one who taught Lahiri Mahasaya? If so, do you believe that this man is immortal? I have followed the teachings of Paramanhansa Yogananda for a couple of years, but have never been initiated into Krya Yoga. Do you do that kind of practice?

Hello Jakob,
Than you for your reaction. I will first answer your direct questions about Mahavatar Babaji.
-Yes, as far as tradition is kind to enlighten me, I can say that he was the teacher of the great Lahiri Mahasaya.
-No, I do not believe he is immortal. I have heard the stories about his extremely high age, but I prefer not to have an opinion about that. I have received teachings from this Guru for which I am most grateful and by which I am humbed, and I have no need or right to speculate about the personal issues of his life.
-No, I do not practice Krya Yoga in the way that Paramahansa Yogananda taught it. The only Yoga I practice is Karma-Yoga. This means that I live my life in the most active way that I can manage. I find that breath-excersise, unless they are done under the strict supervision of an elightened teacher, are very dangerous to the health, and result in most cases in sloth and addiction to pleasure. I would say that you are fortunate not to have been initiated.

To answer your first inquiry a counter-question: How can one be sure what it is one wants ot learn before one has learned it?
I am here in the hope of engaging in discussion with strong and original minds. I have, so far, no read anything by your hand, so I would not know if we can be of interest to each other. If you are interested in sharing views with me, perhaps you would be so kind to refer me to one of your posts which represents well a portion of your body of thought of which you think it could be a fertile ingredient for a conversation with me?

Greetings,
abhi-pratapta

kek be hailed
shva


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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Barracuda on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 pm

And finally the fish bites.
To fool Sauwelios into writing from the soul.

I know my yogi trick.

Sauwelios wrote:
abhi-pratapta wrote:desire for painlessness causes the Earth and it's people to perish. It is so because pain is a fact of life.
Deisre for painlessness is a virtue of many modern philosophies, especially the lustful ones of modernity. Where did this virtue come from? When did man begin to scorn pain?
Only decadents want to live without pain. They want "only pleasure"; but without pain, what remains is not pleasure but painlessness.

"[P]leasure counts as being more primeval than pain: pain only as conditioned, as a consequence of the will to pleasure (of the will to become, grow, shape, i.e., to create: in creation, however, destruction is included). A highest state of affirmation of existence is conceived from which the highest degree of pain cannot be excluded: the tragic-Dionysian state."
[Nietzsche, The Will to Power, section 853.]

But why should a healthy man seek to eliminate pain? Again, Nietzsche has the answer:

"Man, the bravest of animals and the one most accustomed to suffering, does not repudiate suffering as such; he desires it, he even seeks it out, provided he is shown a meaning for it, a purpose of suffering. The meaninglessness of suffering, not suffering itself, was the curse that lay over mankind so far".
[Genealogy of Morals, III, 28.]

So what we need is a meaning of suffering - a meaning of life (for, as Buddha says, "to live is to suffer"). Now Nietzsche continues:

"The meaninglessness of suffering, not suffering itself, was the curse that lay over mankind so far—and the ascetic ideal offered man meaning! It was the only meaning offered so far".
[ibid.]

But the ascetic ideal was a negative ideal - an antinatural ideal (the ideal of "sainthood", of "pure spirit", of incorporeality (like an angel)). Schopenhauer's ideal was the ascetic ideal: he also regarded "incorporeality" as the meaning of life: namely, death. Death, according to him, was the goal and the meaning of life.

But Nietzsche turned against Schopenhauer; more precisely, he turned against the ascetic ideal:

"I also [as well as other things] want to make asceticism natural [as opposed to antinatural] again: in place of the aim of denial, the aim of strengthening; a gymnastics of the will [the original meaning of the Greek askesis is "exercise"]".
[The Will to Power, section 915.]

I have now arrived at the point where I should introduce Daniel Conway's essay, "Love's labor's lost: the philosopher's Versucherkunst [art of experimentation and seduction]", from the bundle "Nietzsche, philosophy and the arts" (Cambridge 1998).

"It is the business of politics, Nietzsche believes, to oversee the production of those rare, exotic individuals who, by virtue of their übermenschlich [superhuman] beauty, excite in others the stirrings of erôs. Indeed, the production of such individuals is coextensive with the production of culture itself."

However, these individuals are not negative ascetics, although negative ascetics are often mistaken for such individuals:

"Ascetics awaken the erôs of others precisely insofar as they (appear to) squander themselves, for they are (believed to be) possessed of a strength of will that affords them the capacity to swallow even mortal doses of suffering. [...]
Of course, not all ascetic disciplines are capable of arousing erôs, for not all ascetics are genuine squanderers. For those ascetics who cannot afford the requisite expenditure of excess affect, disciplines of self-denial engender a sacrifice rather than a squandering. It is not uncommon, moreover, for a sacrifice to be mistaken for a squandering; most martyrs are portrayed not as decadents desperately embracing the "will to nothingness," but as heroes who spend themselves in the tragic service of noble ideals. [...] Socrates beguiled the youth of Athens because he appeared to master himself, subjecting his monstrous appetites to the cold, arresting glare of hyper-rationality. [...]
According to Nietzsche, however, the erotic charm of Socrates is attributable to a grand misunderstanding. Socrates was no squanderer, and he died not so much to honor noble ideals as to surrender to his consuming decadence. [...] Other martyrs, including Jesus, have had a similarly erotic - and similarly disastrous - influence on their witnesses, for they too have been mistaken for squanderers [...]. The psychological genius of St. Paul lay in his political appropriation of Christ as a martyr, in order that he might exploit the erotogenic [erôs-arousing] possibilities engendered by the unjust death of a Savior (AC 42)."

This common mistake is taken into consideration by Nietzsche when he writes:

"It is my good fortune that after whole millennia of error and confusion I have rediscovered the way that leads to a Yes and a No.
I teach the No to all that makes weak - that exhausts.
I teach the Yes to all that strengthens, that stores up strength, that justifies the feeling of strength."
[The Will to Power, section 54, with my emphasis.]

This way is Nietzsche way's out of the labyrinth:

"We have discovered happiness, we know the way, we have found the exit out of the labyrinth of thousands of years."
[The Antichristian, section 1.]

The exit is found by pursuing Ariadne's thread by the light of her crown:

"Dionysos converts [Ariadne] into a crown, the very same crown that he gave her when he arrived. The crown, the symbol of necessity, a sign of perfection, is a circle of seduction. To seduce also means to destroy, _phtheriein_. It is the perfection of deceit that circles in on itself, a perfection with an inherent deceit.

"Theseus too had given her a crown obtained from Poseidon when he arrived in Crete, and she gave Theseus a crown of Dionysos. The gestures of man and god repeat each other. Of course, Ariadne betrays the god when she helps Theseus kill the Minotaur, the crown giving off the light that Theseus needed to negotiate the very dark passages of the labyrinth. Ariadne betrays the god and gives his gift to the lover who replaces him. Ariadne is deceived, beause she deceived. The crown is the same crown, over and over again."
[Kalev Pehme, Note on BG&E, graph 15, with my emphasis.]

Seduction - the philosopher's Versucherkunst - and perfection are intimately related:

"It is the fundamental idea of culture, insofar as it sets for each one of us but one task: to promote the production of the philosopher, the artist, and the saint within us and without us and thereby to work at the perfecting of Nature".
[Nietzsche, Schopenhauer as Educator, section 5, as quoted by Conway, ibid.]

"As [Nietzsche] explains in a remarkable note written in the spring of 1888, the excitation of erôs transfigures the lover, elevating him - if only temporarily - to the lofty station of his beloved:

[size=92]The lover becomes a squanderer [Verschwender]: he is rich enough for it. Now he dares, becomes an adventurer, becomes an ass in magnanimity and innocence; he believes in God again, he believes in virtue, because he believes in love; and on the other hand, this happy idiot grows wings and new capabilities, and even the door of art is opened to him.[/size]

[...] The sublime illusions produced in the lover by erôs thus enable nomos (or human design) to perfect and complete physis [nature]. Only when engulfed in the madness of erôs would human beings ever attempt to overcome or transcend their natural limitations."
[Conway, ibid.]


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Barracuda

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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Barracuda on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:02 pm

The discussion as it proceeds is profound from both sides
It shows how personalities are masks, and how a second mask can take away this first mask.


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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by witchdoctor on Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:53 pm

Bravo, Barracuda. My conversations with myself are rarely this interesting.
Though, I suspect from Sauwelios, that he always writes from the soul.

As to suffering, all suffering, even meaningless suffering is of key importance to the human process.
Suffering is the great teacher from whom we learn compassion.
Only those who suffer can receive compassion, and only those who have suffered can give it.
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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:41 am

Humbly, I've attempted to gather conclusions from this conversation, which is one of the many topics discussed in that thread, without necessarily adding any value to it other than my own comprehension.
Where my understanding might have failed, I ask of you the kindness of patience.

Sauwelios wrote:"It is the business of politics, Nietzsche believes, to oversee the production of those rare, exotic individuals who, by virtue of their übermenschlich [superhuman] beauty, excite in others the stirrings of eros. Indeed, the production of such individuals is coextensive with the production of culture itself."

However, these individuals are not negative ascetics, although negative ascetics are often mistaken for such individuals:

"Ascetics awaken the eros of others precisely insofar as they (appear to) squander themselves, for they are (believed to be) possessed of a strength of will that affords them the capacity to swallow even mortal doses of suffering. [...]
Of course, not all ascetic disciplines are capable of arousing eros, for not all ascetics are genuine squanderers. For those ascetics who cannot afford the requisite expenditure of excess affect, disciplines of self-denial engender a sacrifice rather than a squandering. It is not uncommon, moreover, for a sacrifice to be mistaken for a squandering; most martyrs are portrayed not as decadents desperately embracing the "will to nothingness," but as heroes who spend themselves in the tragic service of noble ideals. [...] Socrates beguiled the youth of Athens because he appeared to master himself, subjecting his monstrous appetites to the cold, arresting glare of hyper-rationality. [...]
According to Nietzsche, however, the erotic charm of Socrates is attributable to a grand misunderstanding. Socrates was no squanderer, and he died not so much to honor noble ideals as to surrender to his consuming decadence. [...] Other martyrs, including Jesus, have had a similarly erotic - and similarly disastrous - influence on their witnesses, for they too have been mistaken for squanderers [...]. The psychological genius of St. Paul lay in his political appropriation of Christ as a martyr, in order that he might exploit the erotogenic [eros-arousing] possibilities engendered by the unjust death of a Savior (AC 42)."

abhi-pratapta wrote:You have made it clear that squandering is higher than sacrifice. I have pondered this, and think now that the reason for this is the quantity of energy involved in the act, and especially in realtion to the quantity of energy in the actor of the act.
Something is squandereing if one can afford it, something is a sacrifice if one can't.
When we go to war, there are two ways; prepared to sacrifice onself, and prepared to squander oneself.
Squandering does not need justification, one goes to war in order to kill and die. But death is sacrifice if there is a purpose beyond the loss of life or energy.

I constructed this table:

High energy / Low energy
Squandering / Sacrifice
Goal in itself / Goal beyond itself
Seduces / Does not seduce

Sauwelios wrote:I agree with roughly the first half of this passage and disagree with the other. You have understood the difference between squandering and sacrificing oneself. But I don't see why you tie squandering to fighting for the fight's sake and sacrificing to fighting for a cause. I do agree that sacrificing and fighting for the fight's sake do not go together; however, I do think one can squander oneself in one's fight for a cause, even as one can sacrifice oneself for it; the former is good, the latter, bad.

So I agree with the first two polarities of your table, but not with the third; and I do certainly not agree with the fourth. As Conway writes:

"It is not uncommon [...] for a sacrifice to be mistaken for a squandering; most martyrs are portrayed not as decadents desperately embracing the "will to nothingness," but as heroes who spend themselves in the tragic service of noble ideals."

Here we see that a sacrifice can arouse eros in others if it is mistaken for a squandering. We also see that Conway distinguishes decadents desperately embracing the "will to nothingness" from heroes who spend themselves in the tragic service of noble ideals. Those who strive for Supermanhood are such heroes

abhi-pratapta wrote:Alongside of this wondering stands the question of whther or not squandering oneself in war is done for a purpose. I would say yes, indeed, no war is without a purpose, whether it is waged with vast superiority or with a chanceless minority. Never, or hardly ever, is animo found among soldiers for war when there is no end to be attained. But this end is taughjt to be only a mask for the real end; that of the joy of slaying or dying gloriously.


Sauwelios wrote:Yes, that is what the Superman will ultimately do:

"[T]he strong races decimate one another: through war, thirst for power, adventurousness; the strong affects: wastefulness [...].
They are races that squander."
[Nietzsche, The Will to Power, section 864.]

Abhi-barracuda proposed that "squandering does not need justification, one goes to war in order to kill and die. But death is sacrifice if there is a purpose beyond the loss of life or energy", a proposition which Sauwelios rejected by stating that a squandering too can be purposeful, relating a purposeless squandering to the decadence of " embracing the 'will to nothingness'". To that, abhi-barracuda replied that purpose "... is taughjt to be only a mask for the real end; that of the joy of slaying or dying gloriously"

Thus, from this exchange I conclude that though there may be purpose to squandering, whether there is a purpose or not is irrelevant, for in squandering the focus is on the expenditure itself, and not on the effect of it. I will elaborate:
Sacrifice is always purposeful. A very expensive expenditure which cannot be afforded is justified only when done for the sake of a cause.
Squandering is not so. The word is synonym to "waste".
In the will-to-power thread, we speak of power as a potential to transform. One that is filled with this potential and overflows from it lays its excess to waste.
A warrior may go to war for believing in a cause, but in the frenzy of battle it is not the love of the cause that overtakes his thoughts and feelings. It is the expenditure itself, the energy release, the causing of destruction, the effecting change, the transformation, the display of power.

To this, I find confirmation on what was said later on:

Sauwelios wrote:the idea of the eternal recurrence is the projection into the metaphysical of the idea that the path is itself the goal:

"this, my Dionysian world of the eternally self-creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my "beyond good and evil," without goal, unless the joy of the circle is itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward itself".
[The Will to Power, section 1067.]

Arriving back to the starting point, suffering, purposeful suffering.
While the river may attack its bank with the full power of its current, and in that release of overflow find realization and joy, a larger bank may contain an even stronger current.
Resistance provides the means by which one may challenge one's own power, and grow.

"I also [as well as other things] want to make asceticism natural [as opposed to antinatural] again: in place of the aim of denial, the aim of strengthening; a gymnastics of the will [the original meaning of the Greek askesis is "exercise"]".
[The Will to Power, section 915.]
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witchdoctor

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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:59 pm

From a more recent christmassy thread:

Mitra-Sauwelios wrote:
"[Camus's] Sisyphus is happy because he finds joy in pushing the boulder up the slope, in exerting his strength; his happiness is a rejoicing in his own strength."

Now, sensible as this may sound, his strength is only equal to a boulder. You may say, "But it's a big boulder!", but that's relative. Does a full glass contain a lot of water, or is it a small glass? Fullness, as I understand it now, is relative, and so is overfullness: not much liquid is needed to make a small glass run over.
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Barracuda

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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Barracuda on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:09 am

Squandering is of the greatest use when there are witnesses. No vertebrate species ever attracts a mate without squandering.

"Only excess of strength is proof of strength" - N

the peacocks feathers.

One might thus squander without wasting. I notice the dictionary says squandering is wasting in a careless or foolish manner - meaning in the case above, in a romantic manner.

How strange that of all things, foolish wastefulness is the most efficient path to securing a future.

The world is always a contradiction when looked at from a perspective of "common sense". Common sense is a vey economic, prudent, conservative, thus very ineffective approach to the world. The world isn't anything else but a big feast of squandering. Life is possible only as a function of this "foolish wasting".



Last edited by Barracuda on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total


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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Satyr on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:16 am

Nice of you to take time out from your proselytizing, and grace us with your presence, oh great noble spirit, inheritor of power and nobility.

Hope your reinvention of Christianity using different words, is going well.
A new Messiah for the post-Nietzsche era - Christianity with the integration of Nietzsche.
The replacement of 'love' with 'value' was brilliant.
It gave that subtle twist to then claim a connection to Will to power...oh great sage.
Before you we bow, hoping your glory can impregnate us with genius.


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Barracuda

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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Barracuda on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:19 am

Ew.

Zoot, ur forum have ignore function?


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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Satyr on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:22 am

Oh great wonder of the world....magnificence...that you direct your genius my way is a great honour.
I see you gathering great minds, like your own...though some have fled from your intoxicating power.
I can only hope that I can become worthy of your genius, great teacher.

Will you spit at me, or flatter me when I pretend to understand the wonder of your teachings?
Glory and honour be thy name...and may it live throughout time.
One day you shall live among the greats...surpassing even him...the idol.


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Re: Note to the Witchdoctor

Post by Satyr on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:36 am

Oh great master...will you not show me your generous wealth.
I drink your every word as golden nectar, from Olympian heights...I gather each one like diamond droplets from the star-charts.
I have plagiarized your new Religious dogma and offer it as Love Ontology, great teacher.
Christianity 3.0., integrating Nietzsche as a prophet of your coming.

Though some call you a self-aggrandizing, buffoon, and a narcissistic moron, I can see your impact on Peterson, on myself, on Zoot, on the cosmos...on everyone you've come in contact with.
Though some call you half-ling, for some reason, I can only see fullness spilling forth in golden showering waterfalls, washing away my mediocrity, raising me up to unimaginable heights.  
Will you accept Brian into your van clan, now that Pedro is gone...and not I?
Can I not be your new pupil, messiah of mediocrity?
Your new Value?


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