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    Capitalism vs Communism

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    Zoot Allures

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    Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:37 am

    smuggled from: http://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=193741&p=2694465#p2694465

    UrGod wrote:And you are fundamentally mistaken about the nature of work. The employer does not “steal” money or profit from the worker, rather the worker rents the employer’s capital and means of production in order to be able to work to produce more net value than the employer could do on his own, and the employer pays the worker a salary for that.

    now why would the proletariat bother with the capitalist when the capitalist contributes nothing to the chain of production but his capital? why wouldn't the proletariat just squash the parasite and take control of the means of production himself?

    he said "rents the employer's capital." that's a nice piece of propaganda there, junior. you make it seem as if the proletariat has the capitalist to thank, when in fact, you've got it totally backwards.

    surplus-value is the difference between the amount of economic value produced by the proletariat and the amount received by the proletariat. the capitalist doen't 'give' the proletariat shit. rather he continues to invest the profit made from the sale of the commodities, into new modes of production. the wealth generated from the labor contributed by the proletariat is never even seen by the proletariat, since he is never rewarded correspondingly to what he produces. it is this that is the inherent conflict involved in this model. maybe a little dialogue will help you:

    inspector: why are you yelling at that worker?

    capitalist: because i want him to work faster.

    inspector: what are you paying him?

    capitalist: ten dollars an hour.

    inspector: how much does he produce in one hour?

    capitalist: one hundred dollars worth of product after expenses.

    inspector: what do you do in the chain of production?

    capitalist: i just provide the money to buy the materials.

    inspector: so then in reality, the proletariat is paying you ninety dollars an hour to tell him to work faster?

    capitalist: but i own the factory and the materials.

    inspector: who built the factory and produced the materials?

    capitalist: damn, you got me.

    inspector: why do the workers allow you to do this?

    capitalist: because they don't have the power to stop me.

    UrGod wrote:In a free economy the worker is free to leave employment if he doesn’t think his salary is good enough.

    oh that's a great idea. now we can just put everyone on welfare and unemployment. it's not like they have a choice, junior. remember how all the peasants had to migrate to the cities to take up specialized labor jobs because the feudal lords took their land from them? one can't just 'decide' to have a job or not.
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    Barracuda

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Barracuda on Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:15 am

    Capital is the first means of production. It is what workers swarm to like ants to Coca Cola spilled on a fornica patio table in the summer.

    If the worker didn't care for capital, if he was not a "parasite", he would work for bread and water and he wouldn't constantly nag the one who provides his workplace for wages so that he can buy a tv or some other unnecessary luxury to corrupt his head.

    These workers that aren't generally capable of becoming master of their own fate by one road or another, why would they deserve more than a modest existence in servitude? What is their merit, objectively speaking?

    Someone with a bunch of talents is always free to make his own destiny. But to the servile type, wage work + the right to complain trumps freedom, which is a lot more work and forces you to take responsibility for your own happiness. Which means you have to make demands on people and rule. There is no middle way.

    In the end mankind seems destined to produce a giant happy slave-class ruled by a small elite of functional minds. Id hope you, Zoot, don't waste your talents on convincing yourself that you have no power of destiny.


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    Zoot Allures

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:34 pm

    you're thinking of money. capital is tangible commodity, real material, and these things are made by human labor. without human productivity, there would be no capital, and therefore no capitalist. the parasite is the thing that does not contribute to the original productivity that made capital possible... and only later invests on more materials and means of production. you must have missed the little dialogue i wrote above?

    barracuda wrote:so that he can buy a tv or some other unnecessary luxury to corrupt his head.

    right... right, only the capitalist should be able to do that.

    barracuda wrote:These workers that aren't generally capable of becoming master of their own fate by one road or another, why would they deserve more than a modest existence in servitude? What is their merit, objectively speaking?

    they don't, if they are not powerful enough to take it. they get no sympathy from me, anymore. especially when they're such passive, god fearing automatons as to remain law abiding citizens despite the fact that they are being ruthlessly exploited.

    barracuda wrote:In the end mankind seems destined to produce a giant happy slave-class ruled by a small elite of functional minds.

    i believe that will happen. have you seen 'elysium', the movie? the premise is remarkable, the story line, not so good. it was badly produced. they could have done much better. the movie deserved to be better written.









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    Barracuda

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Barracuda on Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:09 am

    Zoot Allures wrote:you're thinking of money. capital is tangible commodity, real material, and these things are made by human labor. without human productivity, there would be no capital, and therefore no capitalist. the parasite is the thing that does not contribute to the original productivity that made capital possible... and only later invests on more materials and means of production. you must have missed the little dialogue i wrote above?

    You're thinking of baboons and jellyfish.
    No, capital isn't made by human labor. It is provided by the Earth.
    Human labor is a marginal influence, unless you mean labor as in giving birth.

    I miss nothing.

    barracuda wrote:so that he can buy a tv or some other unnecessary luxury to corrupt his head.

    right... right, only the capitalist should be able to do that.

    Wrong. No one should watch tv or have his head corrupted.

    barracuda wrote:These workers that aren't generally capable of becoming master of their own fate by one road or another, why would they deserve more than a modest existence in servitude? What is their merit, objectively speaking?

    they don't, if they are not powerful enough to take it. they get no sympathy from me, anymore. especially when they're such passive, god fearing automatons as to remain law abiding citizens despite the fact that they are being ruthlessly exploited.

    Voila. Alls Im saying.

    barracuda wrote:In the end mankind seems destined to produce a giant happy slave-class ruled by a small elite of functional minds.

    i believe that will happen. have you seen 'elysium', the movie? the premise is remarkable, the story line, not so good. it was badly produced. they could have done much better. the movie deserved to be better written.

    I think I saw it. Was it the one with the sword fighting?


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    Zoot Allures

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:53 am

    barracuda wrote:No, capital isn't made by human labor. It is provided by the Earth.
    Human labor is a marginal influence, unless you mean labor as in giving birth.

    can't agree with these semantics. the earth is composed of raw materials that are appropriated by the labor of human beings. in this sense, labor has much more than a marginal influence. in fact, it is the very thing that makes human life possible.

    let's look at these again:

    barracuda wrote:Capital is the first means of production. It is what workers swarm to like ants to Coca Cola spilled on a fornica patio table in the summer.

    what you mean by 'means' of production is unclear. originally, before any monetary systems existed, material goods were produced by and through the only means there were; voluntary or forced human labor. now if you mean to say that capital is an amount of money that 'buys' materials and factories for workers to use in the production of material goods, you'd be right, today.

    but here is the point you aren't getting. capital doesn't spontaneously materialize out of thin air. it is not the capitalist's contributing equivalent to the labor of workers. it is rather a degree of wealth generated by the sale of material goods that were already produced by workers. so, what the capitalist does is take something produced by workers, sell it, and invest the money in more raw material and means that the workers use to produce more goods. at no point does the capitalist 'give' anything that he, himself, has produced with his own labor.

    what the workers are 'swarming to', as you put it, is the opportunity to sell their labor for a wage, because they don't own the means of production.

    barracuda wrote:If the worker didn't care for capital, if he was not a "parasite", he would work for bread and water and he wouldn't constantly nag the one who provides his workplace for wages

    perfectly backwards. if the capitalist wasn't a parasite, he wouldn't rely solely on the labor of the workers in order to subsist. instead, he'd use his own labor to produce the required commodities for his own subsistence.

    man you're supposed to know all this shit. this is like first level marxism... the kind of shit you should have learned in highschool.

    i'm not saying it isn't okay to disagree with marx prescriptively, but not descriptively, because there hasn't been and never will be, a more comprehensive and accurate description of the material, economic relations of human beings. karl nailed it. there is no doubt about it.

    i often wonder if rightwingers and conservatives truly do misunderstand what they are talking about when they rail against marxism, or if they do understand, and feel so ashamed that they try to put a spin on it to change the circumstances.

    granted, i don't care... don't get me wrong. it's just very peculiar that they should so often get the thesis so perfectly wrong. maybe it's the kind of thing they think they can just 'wish away'?

    'no, i'm not a parasite... i own factories and pay laborers to work'

    'where'dya get the money?'

    'from selling goods that my workers produced for a wage'

    'where'dya get the money to pay the wage?'

    'from selling the goods that the workers produced'

    'i'm sorry... i must be missing something here. what is it that you actually do in the chain of production?'

    'i use my own labor force to move a pen to write the checks'

    'get the fuck outta here before i put that pen up your ass'

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    Barracuda

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Barracuda on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:03 am

    Zoot Allures wrote:
    barracuda wrote:No, capital isn't made by human labor. It is provided by the Earth.
    Human labor is a marginal influence, unless you mean labor as in giving birth.

    can't agree with these semantics. the earth is composed of raw materials that are appropriated by the labor of human beings. in this sense, labor has much more than a marginal influence. in fact, it is the very thing that makes human life possible.
    I must assume you refer to labour as childbirth here, since human life is very much possible without proletarians and the sweat of their brow. In fact, id contend that the proletarian did not precede he human.

    barracuda wrote:Capital is the first means of production. It is what workers swarm to like ants to Coca Cola spilled on a fornica patio table in the summer.

    what you mean by 'means' of production is unclear. originally, before any monetary systems existed, material goods were produced by and through the only means there were; voluntary or forced human labor. now if you mean to say that capital is an amount of money that 'buys' materials and factories for workers to use in the production of material goods, you'd be right, today.

    but here is the point you aren't getting. capital doesn't spontaneously materialize out of thin air. it is not the capitalist's contributing equivalent to the labor of workers. it is rather a degree of wealth generated by the sale of material goods that were already produced by workers. so, what the capitalist does is take something produced by workers, sell it, and invest the money in more raw material and means that the workers use to produce more goods. at no point does the capitalist 'give' anything that he, himself, has produced with his own labor.

    Long before Marx sat, staring at his quivering shadow, and produced his rubbish, humans owned slaves, and these slaves were capital.

    what the workers are 'swarming to', as you put it, is the opportunity to sell their labor for a wage, because they don't own the means of production.

    That is they were too incompetent to own themselves, or had too little in them for their self-ownership to amount to capital.

    barracuda wrote:If the worker didn't care for capital, if he was not a "parasite", he would work for bread and water and he wouldn't constantly nag the one who provides his workplace for wages

    perfectly backwards. if the capitalist wasn't a parasite, he wouldn't rely solely on the labor of the workers in order to subsist. instead, he'd use his own labor to produce the required commodities for his own subsistence.

    The world is will to power, not the yearning for fairness. You might want to question your premises.

    man you're supposed to know all this shit. this is like first level marxism... the kind of shit you should have learned in highschool.

    You are supposed to be able to read a famous book without kneeling before it and offering yourself in lobotomy before it, man.
    I have completely torn Marx apart.
    http://www.lulu.com/shop/jakob-milikowski/marx-politics-as-navigating-the-discrepancy-between-power-and-ideal/paperback/product-23074101.html

    My grandfather met Stalin and Mao, my the way. Just saying that for fun, it doesn't bear on anything.

    i'm not saying it isn't okay to disagree with marx prescriptively, but not descriptively, because there hasn't been and never will be, a more comprehensive and accurate description of the material, economic relations of human beings. karl nailed it. there is no doubt about it.

    That Marx is your Paul or Christ is only laughable to me because if it weren't, it would be disgusting and I hate disgust.
    Marx is a bloated, pompous moron the archetype of someone who is completely blind to his premises.
    Never did a more bloated moron disgrace this earth.

    i often wonder if rightwingers and conservatives truly do misunderstand what they are talking about when they rail against marxism, or if they do understand, and feel so ashamed that they try to put a spin on it to change the circumstances.

    granted, i don't care... don't get me wrong. it's just very peculiar that they should so often get the thesis so perfectly wrong. maybe it's the kind of thing they think they can just 'wish away'?

    I think it is you who wishes to wish reality away.
    You wish for people that have power to be judged by God, and you wish for God to redistribute their wealth to you.
    Because, you're so damned special, because you're so damned poor.

    Don't you see how radically transparent you are?
    Don't you see how fucking annoying it is to point this out to you?

    I have a hard enough life, but I find a way to sustain myself without relying on moral claims or other peoples initiatives, and I certainly havent ever let my poverty seduce me to feel entitled to other peoples wealth. I only took it as a stimulus to put my talents to work and get money. Thats what I see as honourable. I also see it as honourable to provide work and wage for people who aren't as driven to get by on their own resources. I don't look down on wage workers, or on their employers. I admire the earthly mechanisms at work between them and I see that both can be very happy with their position.

    The advantage of wage work is a lack of responsibility, of being actually free of it all after 5PM. The owner-employer doesn't have this tremendous luxury, nor does the philosopher, for that matter.

    'no, i'm not a parasite... i own factories and pay laborers to work'

    And put bread on their table which their incompetent selves can't do without me, or they wouldn't come to me for a job.

    'where'dya get the money?'

    'from selling goods that my workers produced for a wage'

    On my land with my resources.

    'where'dya get the money to pay the wage?'

    'from selling the goods that the workers produced'

    'i'm sorry... i must be missing something here. what is it that you actually do in the chain of production?'

    'i use my own labor force to move a pen to write the checks'

    'get the fuck outta here before i put that pen up your ass'

    'I recommend that you find yourself a new employer. Granted that you don't seem to be aware of the possibility to create your own business.'

    Any worker worth more than a pig or a cow is able to turn his labor-power into a profitable business and a rewarding career. Those that aren't are just human cattle, and deserve and want what they get - a mindless job about which they can complain and for which they are still rewarded. Moo!


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    Zoot Allures

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:06 pm

    barracuda wrote:I must assume you refer to labour as childbirth here, since human life is very much possible without proletarians and the sweat of their brow. In fact, id contend that the proletarian did not precede he human.

    every form of life labors to live. the term 'proletariat' refers to a specific kind of laborer in a specific time period in specific circumstances. labor precedes, or exists simultaneously to, all life.

    barracuda wrote:Long before Marx sat, staring at his quivering shadow, and produced his rubbish, humans owned slaves, and these slaves were capital.

    sure, if those slaves could be traded or sold for money or property. this does not detract from anything marx said. in fact, it exemplifies an even more extreme marxian truth: that not only is the labor of people exploited for profit, but the very people themselves can become a profit.

    again, i'm no marxist, but i am a fisherman of red herrings... and you are one helluva catch.

    barracuda wrote:That is they were too incompetent to own themselves, or had too little in them for their self-ownership to amount to capital.

    pretty much, yeah. but it's a little more complicated than that. the proletariat of the industrial revolution, for example, had basically four options: 1) keep his job, 2) revolt against the owners of production and take control, or 3) start his own business and become the thing he so despises, or 4) become a bum and get arrested for trespassing.

    not the easiest set of decisions to choose from, brocephus.

    barracuda wrote:The world is will to power, not the yearning for fairness. You might want to question your premises.

    AGAIN, i am no marxist. and a good question of conscience for you might be: would it be okay if the proletarian class overthrew the bourgeois class? it would be, after all, their will to power, right?

    along with understanding what the WTP is, must come the total lack of ressentiment for all its possible expressions. can you do that, brocephus? can you take that final step?

    barracuda wrote:You are supposed to be able to read a famous book without kneeling before it and offering yourself in lobotomy before it, man.
    I have completely torn Marx apart.

    lolz. you tell me that, and then immediately link me to a book you wrote.

    but no, you haven't. entire armies of philosophers can't beat The Beard. if scientific materialists were italian gangster actors, marx would be al pacino, and engels would be robert de niro.

    barracuda wrote:My grandfather met Stalin and Mao

    my mother met james brown. top that.

    barracuda wrote:That Marx is your Paul or Christ is only laughable to me because if it weren't, it would be disgusting and I hate disgust.

    do i tell him again, folks?

    barracuda wrote:Because, you're so damned special, because you're so damned poor.

    my battle has never been with poverty, but the criminal justice system, and it keeps getting better.

    barracuda wrote:I have a hard enough life, but I find a way to sustain myself without relying on moral claims or other peoples initiatives, and I certainly havent ever let my poverty seduce me to feel entitled to other peoples wealth. I only took it as a stimulus to put my talents to work and get money. Thats what I see as honourable. I also see it as honourable to provide work and wage for people who aren't as driven to get by on their own resources. I don't look down on wage workers, or on their employers. I admire the earthly mechanisms at work between them and I see that both can be very happy with their position.

    that was benignly beautiful, brocephus. you're a good fellow.

    barracuda wrote:The advantage of wage work is a lack of responsibility, of being actually free of it all after 5PM. The owner-employer doesn't have this tremendous luxury, nor does the philosopher, for that matter.

    depends on the business. some business owners have employees who handle public relations as well as finances. the owners quite literally do nothing but make money. they might pick up a phone once in a while, though.

    barracuda wrote:And put bread on their table which their incompetent selves can't do without me, or they wouldn't come to me for a job.

    there's a third alternative here: dispose of you and take back the bread they baked before you sell it back to them.

    will to power, and all.

    barracuda wrote:Any worker worth more than a pig or a cow is able to turn his labor-power into a profitable business and a rewarding career. Those that aren't are just human cattle, and deserve and want what they get - a mindless job about which they can complain and for which they are still rewarded. Moo!

    agreed. one thing i can't stand is an atheist materialist who's afraid of social darwinism. either start your own business, or keep your job, or kill yourself. but for the love of man, stop complaining you miserable wretch!
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    Barracuda

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Barracuda on Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:46 pm

    Zoot Allures wrote:
    barracuda wrote:I must assume you refer to labour as childbirth here, since human life is very much possible without proletarians and the sweat of their brow. In fact, id contend that the proletarian did not precede he human.

    every form of life labors to live. the term 'proletariat' refers to a specific kind of laborer in a specific time period in specific circumstances. labor precedes, or exists simultaneously to, all life.

    It is roughly the third caste, between the warrior and the untouchable.
    Ordinary folk. The salt of the earth. People that don't hate their jobs, people that are proud and unionize.

    Unions existed before Marx, Marx parasites off the English workers revolts, which were beautifully sane and started a good thing, which turned sour, and perverted the power of the worker to become nonexistent, as it is now.

    barracuda wrote:Long before Marx sat, staring at his quivering shadow, and produced his rubbish, humans owned slaves, and these slaves were capital.

    sure, if those slaves could be traded or sold for money or property. this does not detract from anything marx said. in fact, it exemplifies an even more extreme marxian truth: that not only is the labor of people exploited for profit, but the very people themselves can become a profit.

    again, i'm no marxist, but i am a fisherman of red herrings... and you are one helluva catch.

    Marx didn't figured that out, it was a well known fact in England where he was supported by Engels living what looks to have been a quite stuffy life.
    I say Marx went wrong when he started thinking things through in his psychotic German way. You'll not be able to move me from this long and hard fought position. Ive gone all the way through Hegel. That was not pleasant. Reading Hegel is just pure papercut. It is all that the mind can do wrong, deliberate cognitive dissonance, resolved in a way that, in the real world, just costs so much pain it is dizzying.

    barracuda wrote:That is they were too incompetent to own themselves, or had too little in them for their self-ownership to amount to capital.

    pretty much, yeah. but it's a little more complicated than that. the proletariat of the industrial revolution, for example, had basically four options: 1) keep his job, 2) revolt against the owners of production and take control, or 3) start his own business and become the thing he so despises, or 4) become a bum and get arrested for trespassing.

    not the easiest set of decisions to choose from, brocephus.

    To a sane person there is also option 3.1; start his own business, and be happy he has become self-sufficient and a source of money and meaning for others.
    Yes, labor is meaningful. Which is why it can be sold, and why it should be owned.

    barracuda wrote:The world is will to power, not the yearning for fairness. You might want to question your premises.

    AGAIN, i am no marxist. and a good question of conscience for you might be: would it be okay if the proletarian class overthrew the bourgeois class? it would be, after all, their will to power, right?
    Ive been waiting for em to join me in revolt (I rebel by excelling throughout all institutions) since the mid 80's but all that happens is that proletarian people become bourgeois slaves.

    But still I hope it wil happen and I have much glee for what we've already accomplished.
    Trumps electorate is todays proletariat.

    along with understanding what the WTP is, must come the total lack of ressentiment for all its possible expressions. can you do that, brocephus? can you take that final step?

    Thats only possible through overcoming all that one resents. Otherwise it is hypocrisy. I attain such states frequently, but m no in it permanently. That would be nice, or will be, Illl have to see.

    barracuda wrote:You are supposed to be able to read a famous book without kneeling before it and offering yourself in lobotomy before it, man.
    I have completely torn Marx apart.

    lolz. you tell me that, and then immediately link me to a book you wrote.

    Yes, more than a chuckle I wasn't after.

    but no, you haven't. entire armies of philosophers can't beat The Beard. if scientific materialists were italian gangster actors, marx would be al pacino, and engels would be robert de niro.

    Hahaha, but dude, you are so definitely a Marxist. The only person that I know who actually admires the man, and I grew up inside the heart of European Communism. My grandfather wrote the Article 1 of our constitution, the equal rights doctrine, and he did so as a Communist. Marx was mistrusted, Marxists had isolated stoner positions. And yet things were accomplished, wages raised, unions had power, healthcare was free, this so called "intermediary phase" which Marx saw coming like a deer sees headlights approaching, he didn't invent any of it, give me a break -and which was supposed to be a mans to an end, was in fact the closest man will ever come to Socialism. Because, mind you, and pay attention please, the dictatorship of the proletariat is an illogical conjecture.

    How would the proletariat manage the possessions, without the wil ti power interfering? How would one guarantee the sainthood of the proletariat?

    How indeed.
    I take you for a very smart person, so I am perplexed that this is not a problem for you. Marx, with the explication of his aims and conclusions, demonstrates a sort of moral autism.

    The agent to the power of Communism in Europe throughout the Cold War was the USSR, the leverage we had. We could push through because we could threaten sabotage and eventually, occupation. Thus, the riches of the Capital Owners got trickled down a bit more lavishly. Thats all there will ever be of Socialism - Philanthropism, forced or spontaneous.

    I bet you the world.

    barracuda wrote:My grandfather met Stalin and Mao

    my mother met james brown. top that.

    Cool. Well Ill tell you a bus driver I talked to on the way up from El Paso to San Fransisco told me he had once stepped on Jim Morrisons shoes. He apologized but Jim said don't worry man, people came here to listen to my music, not to look at my feet.
    I don't know why I told this story. I feel we are drifting off.

    barracuda wrote:Because, you're so damned special, because you're so damned poor.

    my battle has never been with poverty, but the criminal justice system, and it keeps getting better.

    Tis prison system is absurd, and could only happen through the maximization of the state - Capitalism is a given, when you mix in Socialism, you get a lot of blurred incentives, people get jailed just to keep the system running. In a libertarian state this shit wouldn't occur, and that alone is reason enough for it.
    Yu just dont wan tot give government too much power. Socialism is all about turning all over to the Institution; namely, to an abstraction.

    Not to Money, which is not a pure abstraction, it is a brilliantly found form of semi-abstraction, it is the text of capital, excuse my French -
    but the politics of the Proletariat is a pure abstraction, and not only that, it is not abstracted from truth but from the wish that workers will be able to govern without bias.

    Humans are flawed, perhaps my acceptance of that is what makes me a bit noble sometimes. It also makes me have no hope for anything close to Marxist politics.
    Why I think we need something entirely new, based on the simply given of individual being tied intrinsically to other beings on the planet where still individual and value based group-joy is seen as good and aim, and collective joy as at best a means, to forget misery or overthrow tyranny -

    overthrowing tyranny isn't the issue. That can always be done. The issue is whether what you set up in place doesn't respond to the forces that make a tyrant.
    Or else it is about whether or not we can find a perfectly justified tyrant.

    U reckon the best example of such a thing was the man who enforced in Athens by law the full citizenry's attendence of yearly tragedy festivals. Everyone, even slaves, were forced to attend the competing plays. Now that is a cathartic, "Christening", "Socializing" event of some substance.
    Humble the Will, subsume it in eternal beauty, before the eyes of every man woman and child. Now this is what you call Bildung.

    barracuda wrote:The advantage of wage work is a lack of responsibility, of being actually free of it all after 5PM. The owner-employer doesn't have this tremendous luxury, nor does the philosopher, for that matter.

    depends on the business. some business owners have employees who handle public relations as well as finances. the owners quite literally do nothing but make money. they might pick up a phone once in a while, though.

    I would agree that 90 percent or even 99 percent of todays businesses are tainted by if not completely existent in terms of pointless predation.  I really hate how this works has shaped up. I want to break it down and I am not someone who just sits and suffers it as it is. VO is a definite weapon against fake structures.

    We probably agree that social orders need to be justified from the ground up, that top down control is just fucking ridiculous, unless you have a proper Superman in charge, like Jesus, or otherwise Napoleon, who looked up to Jesus but not the Popes. Hitler shows how ridiculous it is, Churchill shows how comedy is the only way to beat a tyrant.

    barracuda wrote:And put bread on their table which their incompetent selves can't do without me, or they wouldn't come to me for a job.

    there's a third alternative here: dispose of you and take back the bread they baked before you sell it back to them.

    will to power, and all.

    Violence begets violence. As the violence of the Owners begets that of the Workforce, so the Total Revolutionary begets the Earthly hell of today.
    I admit to a bit of shortcutting here - what I mean to point out is that Socialist doctrines have only enabled Capital to become more concentrated in the hands of pieces of shit. Only innovation and technology had been able to break this bond somewhat. Philosophy is bound to be the technology of mind that allows for proper law giving so as to set man free forever of tyranny, private and public.

    I am an anarchist  at heart who loves New York City of the early 90's. I believe Capital must, de facto and almost ad hoc, exist to produce space for the exploration of human rights. I detest the American pre trump Establishment because they are the primary fascist agent in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa With Trump the grip of this sanctimonious force of scumbags on Europe has been greatly lessened, which has been the greatest relief of my life. Ive been close to suicide when Nato appeared to have won world dominance. Thats what I consider pure evil - the sanctimony of the west after the USSR fell.  My grandfather was a good fighter against Nato from within the Netherlands. He played a strong part in preventing nukes from being stationed here. As a Communist also secured classica education, because the Socialists wanted to abolish it on account of it being elitist -  he asked the minister in parliament, why just now that the workers were finally entitled to learning Greek and Latin, he would take it away from them. He didn't ask politely, and he phrased it a hel of a lot better, and in Dutch, but that was it, I was able to be born, so as to learn to know ZEUS.

    barracuda wrote:Any worker worth more than a pig or a cow is able to turn his labor-power into a profitable business and a rewarding career. Those that aren't are just human cattle, and deserve and want what they get - a mindless job about which they can complain and for which they are still rewarded. Moo!

    agreed. one thing i can't stand is an atheist materialist who's afraid of social darwinism. either start your own business, or keep your job, or kill yourself. but for the love of man, stop complaining you miserable wretch!

    The benefit of parliamentary capitalism, Capitalist Government with a House of Representatives, is that the term "employment" covers a great deal of meaningful terrain. Even the presidency is "a job". I find this to be a rather proletarian approach to power, compared to say, Crown and Aristocracy led England or Industrial-Bureaucratic Germany. I think the US has done far more for the empowerment of the Worker than Marx, who has, I think, mainly allowed for China to move directly from Antiquity into Modernity.

    One word: opium.


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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:27 pm

    barracuda wrote:It is roughly the third caste, between the warrior and the untouchable.

    there were workers long before the hindu caste system even existed. but you can use the hindu caste system to define the worker as a lowly class if it makes you feel above them.

    barracuda wrote:Unions existed before Marx, Marx parasites off the English workers revolts, which were beautifully sane and started a good thing, which turned sour, and perverted the power of the worker to become nonexistent, as it is now.

    of course they did, but the organization of the working classes into a formidable force did not happen until marx and engels were published. the little english strikes and revolts against the lock-outs, were nothing compared to what lenin, trotsky, and mao did, taking directly from marx.

    we are talking about the effect of marx and his work, not the success of any revolution. the point is, revolution was amateur child's play until marx and engels came onto the scene.

    barrracuda wrote:I say Marx went wrong when he started thinking things through in his psychotic German way. You'll not be able to move me from this long and hard fought position. Ive gone all the way through Hegel.

    marx began as a young hegelian, but eventually parted ways, turning hegel 'upside down'. unless you understand why and how marx disagreed with hegel, you'll not understand marx, properly.

    barracuda wrote:Ive been waiting for em to join me in revolt (I rebel by excelling throughout all institutions) since the mid 80's but all that happens is that proletarian people become bourgeois slaves.

    in the mid eighties you were a young teenager riding skateboards and reading comic books, not leading revolutions.

    barracuda wrote:Because, mind you, and pay attention please, the dictatorship of the proletariat is an illogical conjecture.

    socialism, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, is the second to last stage of communism, as marx saw it. his unrealistic utopian ideal- that of a new man for which the state would not be necessary and wither way- was not accepted by mao, lenin, or stalin. socialism maintains a central dictatorship for theoretical reasons; it believes a vanguard party is always necessary to prevent socialism from transforming back into capitalism.

    barracuda wrote:I feel we are drifting off.

    that's all these exchanges will ever be; drifting off.







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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Barracuda on Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:23 pm

    You give up too easily.
    This was actually getting somewhere.
    In any case I now know that all you are interested in is simply economic freedom. Like Pezer, though he wants to be rich.
    Nothing wrong with that, in fact such freedom for philosophical is what Im interested in building. The human species isn't capable of governing itself otherwise.

    I believe in excellence, I believe that unless man is excellent he is less than natural.


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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Barracuda on Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:34 pm

    Power and Freedom are like two axes.
    One can be very powerful but not free. Like GW Bush was.
    Or very powerful and relatively free. More like Xi or Trump.
    It depends on a third metric; knowledge.

    One can be very free with no power, if one "knows that one knows nothing besides that fact", zen.

    Im not talking about will to power now, just power, in the classical sense.
    Will is defined as freedom better than as power.

    The freedom to power is not a bad paraphrasing.


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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Barracuda on Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:37 pm

    Freedom is the capacity do do what you want. Power is the capacity to do anything at all, but not necessarily what you want.



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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:45 pm

    barracuda wrote:You give up too easily.

    it's not that i 'give up' when i stop, but that i am polite enough not to say sometimes you are so wrong, it repulses me, and i no longer desire to discuss anything with you.

    but it's not being wrong, in itself, that repulses, ... it's the unentitled sense of vanity, arrogance and self righteousness that comes with it, which you very much have.

    unfortunately, i know the emperor has no hoodie.
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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:49 pm

    Capitalism or communism? I propose that neither are beneficial where instead we have a moderate socialist and collectivist state. What is also not acceptable is democracy for it is a system of governance perpetuated by a majority of idiots.


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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 pm

    There is a third option - Timocracy.


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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:42 pm

    Satyr wrote:There is a third option - Timocracy.

    Monarchical style of national socialist autocracy. I will however say that while I believe in a philosopher king kind of ruler I have no faith in aristocracy or oligarchy by themselves. Both need to be controlled, regulated, and dominated underfoot by a strong government centralization.


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    "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

    “To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

    “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein

    "Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:44 pm

    I said Timocracy....read up on it.
    it's what preceded Democracy. Democracy was a compromise when Athens began to decline.


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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:58 pm

    Satyr wrote:I said Timocracy....read up on it.
    it's what preceded Democracy. Democracy was a compromise when Athens began to decline.

    I know about the part of land owners having any right of influencing government which is what I don't like. We need a system that looks at all of society as one whole instead of separate divisions where the common man or woman is raised up also in bettering themselves.

    I've seen the destructive tendencies and hedonism of the very wealthy or powerful my entire life where I know all to well such individuals unregulated left to their own devices destroy society from within. The philosopher king is a ruler of intellect not of material vices and understands the virtue of protecting the most vulnerable within society for civilization is nothing without a strong prosperous foundation or framework. Such a ruler also knows how to restrain the aristocratic or oligarchic forces within society keeping them away from going wild in destroying all other segments of society.


    Last edited by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    "The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

    "I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

    -Thomas Hobbes-

    "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

    “To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

    “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein

    "Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

    “In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:58 pm

    corporatism. that's the end. fukuyama almost hit the nail on the head, but he failed to acknowledge the natural tyranny of big business in capitalism. corporatism is like an inverted hybrid of capitalism and socialism; you're gonna have increasing government but also increasing power in the private sectors. the result is a stalemate between private enterprise and government regulation. eventually, major companies will expand their hold and force small business into extinction. taco bell will own entire planets and employ billions of people, and the government will regulate wages and benefits so the working middle classes remain stable and continue to flourish.

    we have reached the end of history.

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:01 pm

    satyr wrote:Democracy was a compromise when Athens began to decline.

    that's why you took an ass-whooping by sparta, with your weak-ass democrazy. learned your lesson, didn't you? bet you won't do that again.

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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:03 pm

    Zoot Allures wrote:corporatism. that's the end. fukuyama almost hit the nail on the head, but he failed to acknowledge the natural tyranny of big business in capitalism. corporatism is like an inverted hybrid of capitalism and socialism; you're gonna have increasing government but also increasing power in the private sectors. the result is a stalemate between private enterprise and government regulation. eventually, major companies will expand their hold and force small business into extinction. taco bell will own entire planets and employ billions of people, and the government will regulate wages and benefits so the working middle classes remain stable and continue to flourish.

    we have reached the end of history.

    Or you have nationalisation of everything in which the state dominates all......

    The end always brings a new beginning and chapter.


    _________________
    "The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

    "I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

    -Thomas Hobbes-

    "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

    “To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

    “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein

    "Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

    “In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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    Re: Capitalism vs Communism

    Post by Satyr on Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:33 am

    Zoot Allures wrote:
    satyr wrote:Democracy was a compromise when Athens began to decline.

    that's why you took an ass-whooping by sparta, with your weak-ass democrazy. learned your lesson, didn't you? bet you won't do that again.

    That form of Democracy is now impossible.
    What we have now is Plutocracy pretending to be Democracy to keep the masses docile.

    Selling yourself as the lowest-common-denominator, to unite heterogeneous populations, is a form of prostitution.

    Timocracy made citizenship a right and a duty, one had to earn, and one could lose.


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