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    Examining Value Ontology

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    Zoot Allures

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    Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:13 am

    quotes Barracuda is responding to are taken from: http://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177148

    Barracuda wrote:It is a beautiful passage, in which we can distinguish what held Nietzsche back from a comprehensive clarity. He still believed in, at least worked from, the duality of truth and appearance. In this way it could not become apparent to him that the value is not what derives from the truth/appearance of the world/a thing, he was not (morally) strong enough to reverse this conception, as I have done -- to arrive at the far more useful idea that value (more precisely the act of valuing) gives rise to both appearance and truth.

    i get a much different reading of those quotes from N, and don't reach the same conclusion as you have. in fact, i think you misunderstood him almost completely.

    he is beginning from his theory that philosophers have sought value in a 'true' world because they have hitherto found this world to be disagreeable; this world pisses me off, therefore the senses lie! recall his 'how truth became a fable' (or whatever he called it) in the twilight of the idols. he lays out the steps that philosophers have taken to reach this conclusion; that 'this' would is only an appearance of a higher, truer world that cannot be known through the senses... therefore, the senses deceive us. but they don't. rather, they give us the 'true' world, which is only an appearance. this means the very conception of a 'real' world beyond the knowledge of the senses is inconceivable.

    this steps eliminates the possibility of there being 'value-in-itself' to correspond with 'thing-in-itself', or 'reality-in itself.'

    next step. he points out if the above conclusion were not made- if we still believed in this 'true' world- we still couldn't be sure what we thought was truely valuable, what reflected true values grounded in this true world, were actually values. it every well could be the case that our 'moral good' was, in fact, a 'moral bad'. for all we know, we could have it completely backward... and we wouldn't even know it. he makes a very insightful point.

    now you suggest that this conception could be reversed. but there is no 'duality' anymore; there is no truth and appearance from which to draw a comparison. therefore, valuing couldn't 'give rise', as you put it, to truth. neither could valuing establish anything more than the fact that we value things in an apparant world. this doesn't ground anything. it only shows a contingency... a case of a certain kind of valuer valuing a certain kind of value... based on the valuer's degree of perceptiveness, strength, and power.

    the fact that there is valuing doesn't change anything N proposes, and neither does he exhibit 'moral weakness' for not arriving at the conclusions you make from this misunderstanding. instead, it is perhaps your continual insistence that valuing grounds everything in a world of appearance, that is a symptom of weakness.

    you are doing the same thing the philosophers did; distrusting the senses and seeking a higher justification for valuing above and beyond the world of appearance.

    VO is just another contingency, just another specific kind of theory that attempts to establish a 'true' world, whether it be platonic or kantian or whatever.

    furthermore, it makes little sense to assert that valuing is the ground of being without also being able to show a distinction between correct and incorrect valuing. if everything is valuing, and not-valuing is impossible, then nothing is explained but a tautology.

    VO cannot get around this is-ought fallacy, even if it could be substantiated somehow (and it can't). remember, how could you be sure your 'good' value wasn't, in fact, a 'bad' value? how could you know if there was no true world which was the ground of the apparent world? you are stuck at the same euthyphro dilemma socrates and his buddy were stuck at, in front of the court house.

    and ask yourself how useful, how pragmatic, a theory is which tells you everything values and everything exists because it is a valuing. okay, let's grant that much for the sake of argument.

    now what.... ?

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:30 am

    nietzsche wrote:Our empirical world would be determined by the instincts of self-preservation even as regards the limits of its knowledge: we would regard as true, good, valuable that which serves the preservation of the species--

    Assuming the true world, it could still be a world less valuable for us; precisely the quantum of illusion might be of a higher rank on account of its value for our preservation. (Unless appearance as such were grounds for condemnation?)

    key points.

    first point: a species is constantly evolving, therefore, things that are valuable at one stage might not be valuable at a later stage.

    second point: even if the 'true' world were to have it that not preserving ourselves was the purpose of our valuing, we'd still preserve ourselves, and couldn't do otherwise.

    first point demonstrates the relative nature of valuing... and the second demonstrates the irrelevance of a possible ground to valuing.

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:44 am

    nietzsche wrote:The "will to truth" would then have to be investigated psychologically: it is not a moral force, but a form of the will to power. This would have to be proved by showing that it employs every immoral means: metaphysicians above all.

    a brilliant reversal. it would be the metaphysical belief in a true world that would be the greatest immorality against life... if, indeed, there is only the apparent world.

    the will to power of the metaphysician is to misappropriate and slander this world, then.

    maybe we should walk through these ideas step by step. there is order to his formulae, and if a particular step is misunderstood, the entire process of reasoning is misunderstood.

    now of course one can disagree, but first one must known what one is disagreeing with.
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    Barracuda

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Barracuda on Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:52 pm

    Zoot Allures wrote:
    maybe we should walk through these ideas step by step.  

    Excellent idea.


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    Z13

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Z13 on Tue May 01, 2018 9:58 am

    if given the option to either work or spend my time at a philosophy forum playing ring around the rosie, id rather work. i get results from work... not so much from philosophy. or rather i get something i can definitively use, whereas in doing philosophy i learn nothing useful, or spend my time running in circles with someone i believe is wrong... or more generally, so confused they can't even be wrong.

    today i got and lost a job within one hour's time, so here i am. i will give you my divided attention for only a moment, so be quick about it.

    Excellent idea.

    after you...




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    Magnus Anderson

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Magnus Anderson on Thu May 31, 2018 5:59 am

    Zoots Allures wrote:if given the option to either work or spend my time at a philosophy forum playing ring around the rosie, id rather work. i get results from work... not so much from philosophy. or rather i get something i can definitively use, whereas in doing philosophy i learn nothing useful, or spend my time running in circles with someone i believe is wrong... or more generally, so confused they can't even be wrong.

    I can show you how philosophy can be applied in real life. I actively do so. But you're right in that online discussions are fruitless. Nonetheless, online discussions, you have to admit, are not philosophy itself. Don't confuse the two. Philosophy is just uncategorized knowledge i.e. knowledge that does not fall into any of the established categories. If you're a creative person -- an innovator -- you will inescapably dabble in philosophy. On the other hand, we have a lot of categories nowadays, so it's very hard to do what is known as philosophy -- try it and you will quickly find yourself categorized. You think you're doing philosophy, but what you're doing is psychology; or sociology.

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Z13 on Thu May 31, 2018 4:41 pm


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    witchdoctor

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by witchdoctor on Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:12 pm

    I humbly ask of all parts of this conversation to point me to my mistakes.

    Zoot Allures wrote: therefore, the senses deceive us. but they don't. rather, they give us the 'true' world, which is only an appearance. this means the very conception of a 'real' world beyond the knowledge of the senses is inconceivable.

    now you suggest that this conception could be reversed. but there is no 'duality' anymore; there is no truth and appearance from which to draw a comparison. therefore, valuing couldn't 'give rise', as you put it, to truth.

    The only truth one can know, in your own words, is a "'true' world, which is only an appearance", limited to the knowledge of the senses. The appearance does not have its truth counterpart with which to be compared.
    Therefore valuing can't 'give rise' to ~*the truth*~, but valuing/judging, as the culmination of all sensorial processing, is the fundament of the only truth one can reach.
    One's own truth, which is merely a perspective.

    Thus I grant that there is an important relationship between value and truth, but not between value and ~*the truth*~, and for that reason I agree that this doesn't ground anything, as you said:

    neither could valuing establish anything more than the fact that we value things in an apparant world. this doesn't ground anything. it only shows a contingency... a case of a certain kind of valuer valuing a certain kind of value... based on the valuer's degree of perceptiveness, strength, and power.

    Since the relationship between value and truth as humans are able to perceive it is a phenomena of consciousness, it cannot give any substantiation to ontological arguments.
    From the human perspective, it demonstrates that an illusion can be an extremely effective means of survival and conquering of one's environment.

    Yet, the Cosmos does exist...

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Z13 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:05 pm



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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Z13 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:33 pm



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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Z13 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:22 pm


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    Satyr

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:28 pm

    Ironic that this is the guy Peterson keep referring to...


    As evidence on how long this has been going on I offer a small quote from Michael Jone's book from centuries ago...
    much glory in their [Le., theJews'] mysterious Cabal, wherein they make the reality of things to depend upon letters and words; but they hold that the Hebrew hath sole privilege of this. This Cabal ... is, as they say, a reparation in some measure for the loss of our knowledge of Adam, and they say it was revealed four times.'l!

    The quote was from centuries ago and it was about how the Scots were, hypothetically, very similar to the Jews.
    The story is long but at the time the jew was popular among the Brits.
    An idea Heisman also mentions and justifies...as being the consequence of a similar shaming past.
    The Anglo-Saxons had been shamed by the conquest and domination of the Norse.
    Something that spilled into the American Civil War.
    To this day an affinity between Protestants and Jews persists.

    What is most interesting is that the same practices of manipulating language, ascribing magical properties to words and numbers has emerged.
    In times of decline the same superstitions emerge.
    Numerology, Gematria...Kabbalistic occultism and so on.
    The Torah has been described as an exercise in word manipulation to produce an effect...and is in every other way nonsensical.

    Here is a pragmatic expression of the same phenomenon, on a less sophisticated scale.
    Psychology of Schooling
    Genes to memes....meaning from genetic dispositions to memetic ones.
    This strategy is nothing new.


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    witchdoctor

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:03 pm

    Satyr, I think you are in the wrong thread. Jew bashing is going on a few forums down.

    @Zoot

    1.
    Judging is not an entirely cognitive process... it attempts it. Valuing and judging are closely linked. That is why there is a need for a jury selection process, a panel or jurors, among many other precautions to attempt giving a fair judgment.
    Judgment is invariably loaded with bias because of our relationship with value.

    2.
    Valuing as existing outside of a cognitive process is conceivable.
    You're going to complain about this being another language game, but bear with me. It is not a language game, it is an imagination game.
    Since we basically defined above that "truth" (not The Truth)  is a perspective created from valuing (a culmination of sensory processing plus judgment plus taste and what have you, to put it simply), there can be no truth without valuing... but why are you so certain that the reverse is true?

    Can there be valuing without  this awareness of the world around you, as we know it? Do you value when you are sleeping? Trees don't have a consciousness like ours, as far as we know, does that mean they do not value... can you state with conviction that trees are acting solely from their genetic programming?
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    Satyr

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:05 pm

    This is about the manipulation of language, not about 'bashing'.
    An ancient practice.
    Each tribe developed its own strategy to survive.
    Genes to Memes.
    Using words in inappropriate ways and then justifying it using mysticism and 'esoteric' is an ancient practice.
    The term 'esoteric' implies a lot. It's a trigger word, meant to stimulate internal ho;es, desires....the realm of subjectivity where the will is supreme rulers of its internal domain.
    It also implies depth, profundity...a secret power, without having to show it.
    They often use this method in marketing.
    Even the use of 'ontology' is suggestive....like an abstract painting.
    Everyone can project into the word whatever he desires....is desperate for...a resolution, a secret passion etc.


    Last edited by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:30 pm

    Ascribing magical properties to words and numbers is nothing new. It goes back to Persia.
    Esoteric means subjective.
    It implies that what cannot be shown, proven, can be felt.
    These claims are accompanied with great promises of wealth and power, to soften skepticism and make the target more susceptible to them.
    Flattery, love, friendship, camaraderie are all part of the process of manipulation...the sales pitch.
    The placebo effect wears out over time. There's only so much suggestibility can accomplish.
    It's range of effect is limited by how many speak the language and how many are triggered 'correctly'. A period of preparation is required to set the stage.  

    Brian is right about metaphysics.
    Unless it is used as a support for physics, it is nonsensical and useless.
    He is wrong about the end of philosophy.
    I'm afraid he's a victim of brainwashing.
    When a mind is convinced philosophy can offer more than it can, his disappointment rejects it altogether.
    The solution to the world view where there is no free-will, all is determined and philosophy is at an end is....drum rollllll.
    Hedonism, cynicism, stoically enduring existence...as it happens to you.  

    If language is cleaned of all its viral residue it can begin to engage reality anew.
    We begin with the given, the aesthetically accessible, not with idealism nor with metaphysics.
    Proper use of words is as connectors between the ideal and the real, the noumenon and the phenomenon...that's the start.


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:39 pm

    Words are not toys nor are they magical talismans...they are tools.
    Tools that connect the idea with the world...they are conduits of relating to the alien, the other.

    Converted to toys they can serve as escapes, fantasies, self-referential, self-consistent, alternative realities.
    We can connect many words to reality.
    Those we cannot we'll have to file under 'theoretical', ideological....hypothetical.

    Often how we define words exposes our intent.
    The ancients defined the word 'god' in a way they could relate to, they could experience daily...they could use.
    Abrahamics defined it in supernatural, nihilistic terms, making them forever slaves to a concept they could never attain, other than after death....and forever feel inferior to.
    I have a friend who has defined the term 'self' in a modern mystical way so that he could never face up to himself...to his self. He sues mystification to excuse himself.  
    When i offered him a tangible, rational, programmatic definition he rejected it, preferring to be mystified, to be in search of this elusive magical concept of 'self'.
    I'm sure there are others who do the same with terms like 'race' 'humanity' and 'love'.

    How you define 'love' or 'self' or 'value', 'humanity' exposes your psychology, your intentions.
    All of these words could be defined in a way that mystifies them, makes them inaccessible, or they can be defined pragmatically, in a way they can be observed, experienced, evaluated...tested.


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:00 pm

    Satyr wrote:Brian is right about metaphysics.
    Unless it is used as a support for physics, it is nonsensical and useless.

    Physics does not need support from metaphysics. It is mathematical. It's a set reproducible model extracted from phenomena. It is what it is.

    Metaphysics is to step outside of physics and look at it from the outside and to wonder why it is what it is.

    It is as useless as when a person outside of a car telling a person inside the car that gasoline is actually dead dinosaurs, or perhaps dead aliens (duh, I put it in my tank and it make car go), but it is also as useful as when a person outside of a car telling a person inside the car what is in their blind spot.

    About as useful as metaphors.
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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:09 pm

    It does if you believe in free-will and chaos defined as randomness.

    For the Alexandrians, not so much.
    Anything outside order is nonsense.
    God has been replaced by absolute one, and order.
    Hey...the human psyche needs something.
    I'm more than happy to remain in the domain of determined past and absolute order. It's more applicable.
    The other only leads to anxiety and coping mechanisms.

    By the way...do you know how you manipulate a narcissist?
    You feed into his self-flattering, self-aggrandizing psychosis.
    I'm doing it right now.
    So are you...unintentionally.

    Just thought you should know.
    I've been doing it for years....once in a while triggering a new round of feel-goodness to a desperate, lost, soul.
    I'm generous that way.


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by witchdoctor on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:36 pm

    Satyr wrote:It does if you believe in free-will and chaos defined as randomness.

    None of these things can exist.


    For the Alexandrians, not so much.
    Anything outside order is nonsense.
    God has been replaced by absolute one, and order.
    Hey...the human psyche needs something.
    I'm more than happy to remain in the domain of determined past and absolute order. It's more applicable.
    The other only leads to anxiety and coping mechanisms.

    You lost me.  


    By the way...do you know how you manipulate a narcissist?
    You feed into his self-flattering, self-aggrandizing psychosis.
    I'm doing it right now.
    So are you...unintentionally.

    I know what I am doing.


    Just thought you should know.
    I've been doing it for years....once in a while triggering a new round of feel-goodness to a desperate, lost, soul.
    I'm generous that way.  

    Me too, but then I get bored of KT very quickly.
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    Satyr

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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:45 pm

    witchdoctor wrote:
    Satyr wrote:It does if you believe in free-will and chaos defined as randomness.

    None of these things can exist.
    God is omnipresent...order is everywhere.
    God bless us all.

    witchdoctor wrote:You lost me. 
    No matter.

    witchdoctor wrote:I know what I am doing.
    I'm sure.
    Please carry on.
    I'm just giving you an added dimension.

    witchdoctor wrote:Me too, but then I get bored of KT very quickly.
    Cute.
    You should become 'bored'. you are complex...secret realms of hidden order beneath the tangled web of complexities.
    This is more the place for you. A place to heal.

    I'm not narcissistic, dear.
    I hate myself more than anyone else can ever dream of.
    I use others to abuse myself.
    I'm nothing and nobody...outis she baptized me, and I bowed and accepted her decree, setting sail for a lost island I had never been to....pretending to be a Satyr.
    A mask.
    Tied to the masts of time.

    But have I become the topic when another needs more of your caring attentions?
    Can you imagine what joy we've given the poor creature?
    I'm a giver....not a taker.
    Sometimes it takes so little to bring another so much joy.
    A pitcher, not the catcher.  
    What a Face


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:53 pm

    I'm not responsible for this....it's all determined.
    All of us innocent bystanders of our own lives.
    Why hate when it's nobody's fault?
    Nobody's choice.

    Why not simply enjoy....laugh at what happens to us, despite our will.
    Why take any of it seriously when we can do nothing about it?
    Endure...learn to accept...as this has also been determined.


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:57 pm

    The Abrahamic paradox...if god is good and he has created us, determined us, and everything we will ever do and think....then why are we being held accountable?
    Why must we be punished for what he has determined?

    Free-will....but undefined...mysterious, magical, and damning.
    "You are 'free' to do as I will, but also free to not do my will, and you shall be punished with an eternity of suffering in hell'....a non-choice choice.
    It was created and given....enough said.

    I luv word games.


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Z13 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:21 pm



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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Z13 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:33 pm


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    Re: Examining Value Ontology

    Post by Satyr on Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:56 pm

    My sarcasm is always relevant.
    Like I said....nobody is at fault. all choices have been predetermined.
    Nobody is responsible.
    Fatalism.
    We can only endure...and enjoy what has been determined.

    It's perfect.
    Man as audience of his own destiny.
    What can we do but laugh, and enjoy what we can of what has already been determined.
    No, actually the belief in no free-will is a method of control.
    How much easier it it to accept our submission, our surrender, than to think of it as not our fault....as predetermined?

    A woman walks through the ghetto with a mini skirt and no [panties...whatever happens was out of her control.
    She had nothing to do with it.

    In hind-sight we can say 'it had to be this way and no other way'...we are victims of cosmic order.\
    What can we do about it, but endure it...accept it?
    We are responsible for nothing.  
    Why blame, why be ashamed....nothing is your fault, nor mine.
    Heaven on earth....salvation while alive. We are automatons.
    Even this response was predetermined...so why reply...and if you do why read it?
    Will it change anything?
    Nope.

    Adapt to the other....or face the consequences. This too is out of my control.
    Let's play....

    On topic...
    The word 'value', as I've been programmed to say before...is about juxtaposing subject, the judge, with object, the judged, in relation to objective, the goal, the standard.
    Any other application of the word is guided by a desire to exploit and manipulate by mystifying, by implying something reserved for the 'chosen', the worthy...who have been determined to be so...by god?
    By universe? The absolute one.
    Why fight it?
    Has the choice not been made for us?
    Why fight the cops?
    Why hate them? It's not their fault...it has all been determined. Endure it stoically...with Buddhist detachment.

    Other words some were determined to choose to corrupt...so it ain't their fault...
    Humanity.......love.......race.....morality.....

    Let me display my 'LOL' epistemological metaphysics of ontology....
    Love should not be separated from 'self'...self-love.
    We love loving self loving itself in love.
    Love = god, absolute order....the determining one. All is love loving itself in love...a rock loves itself...a drop of water...a pebble loves the tide pushing it to and fro....lovingly.
    Quantum physics supports my Love Ontology.
    So does Cosmology, astrology, hmmm....I'm trying to think of more Latin and Greek words....Hermeneutics...that one is always impressive unless you speak Greek and then it's just another common word...an every day word....Ερμηνευσεις....translations, interpretations....
    Numerology is also proof of LOL.
    Biblical Scripture....voo doo....astrophysics, herpetology.....and on and on...
    My LOL is being proven after-the-fact, continuously.
    When someone farts I think...after I smell....'That smells like LOL at work...'
    Whatever happens whatever is discovered or thought....is evidence of my LOL philosophy.

    Don't fight it people....bend your knew before the greatest mind that has ever lived or that will ever live....perhaps for the next thousand years.
    Every time you use the word 'love' you are talking about me.
    Every time you fall in love, its validating my thesis...another good Greek word meaning something as simple as seat, position.....but it sounds more impressive in Greek.
    since I'm more interested in my image i prefer it to the English mundane word 'position'.
    Blah!


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