The Pathos of Distance

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The Pathos of Distance

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    Collectivism or individualism?

    Mitra-Sauwelios
    Mitra-Sauwelios
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    Collectivism or individualism? Empty Collectivism or individualism?

    Post by Mitra-Sauwelios on Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:34 am

    A couple of days ago, a contact of mine told me:

    i like classical music. schopen's fantasie is a hymn for overman. just observe the inhuman and overhuman tempo with which he plays. divine presto!

    I replied:

    Yeah, well, I have some radical opinions on classical music, as you know. I do think it's good you're--violating yourself with it, though. I think that's a necessary phase for any modern. Note that Machiavelli was the first founder of modernity...

    To which my Eastern European/Western Asian friend replied:

    So that classical music is the product of modern soul ? soul that was founded by Machiavelli ? why is modern soul machiavellian ? and why is machiavelli a founder of modernity ? first of all, i wonder how you define the pre-modern man and then modern. later is individualist and the former collectivist ? what are the basic traits of one and another ? what are the hierarchy of their values ?   I do not think that machiavelli was the liberal modern man. quite the opposite, for me he was elitist for whom the prince and his nobility was end in itself. everything else should have been sacrificed for him. what do you think ?

    In response to which I wrote the following mini-essay:

    I don't think Machiavelli was a modern man, either; I think he was a Renaissance man. But he was the first founder of modernity. He was himself the new prince, just as Plato's Socrates--or Paul's Jesus--was the prince before him.

    Yes, modern man is individualist whereas pre-modern man is collectivist, but it's a little more complicated than that. As Nietzsche indicates in Dawn 9, Platonism or Socratism was already individualist. Yet Platonism especially transferred the individual's gain to the afterlife ("salvation of the soul"), and basically taught people to live collectivistically, if only in order to "go to Heaven". Collectivistically: that means, sittlich.

    Modernity is essentially the age in which the individual's gain is sought especially in this world instead. At first, that was just a promise over many generations, so the salvation still lay in one's biological or spiritual "afterlife" (biological or spiritual (grand)children, not to say great great great grandchildren). The only direct individual gain was that things would probably already get a little bit easier over the course of one's own lifetime. But since then, science has come a long way, and people can now somewhat realistically hope to be cured of old age or cryogenically frozen or something like that. In any case we're living in what early moderns would have regarded as a relative technological paradise.

    Machiavelli was the first founder of modernity because he was the first to teach the conquest of nature, which after him was really got under way by Bacon and Descartes--the conquest of nature by means of scientific technology. So-called "classical" music, the original tonal music, is an important example of that: people investigated scientifically, namely physiologically, which combinations and alternations of tones had the strongest pleasurable effect on people (even if it was through negative emotions--for "all's well that ends well"...).

    Lastly, as for the different hierarchies of values (modern, pre-modern, etc.), I've found it difficult to put it in those terms. I do think it's only a question of the hierarchy, not of the values themselves; like Nietzsche in AC 57, I think there are basic types of people, each type of which has had the same values since prehistoric times (though the means to attaining those values may vary). I haven't quite come to a satisfying determination of those values and their shifting hierarchies through history, though. Some of my most advanced thoughts on the matter can be found in the "Nietzschean typology thread" in our secret Dawn forum on my swastika site:

    [Link replaced: http://pathos-of-distance.forumotion.com/t34-nietzschean-typology-thread]
    Zero_Sum
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    Collectivism or individualism? Empty Re: Collectivism or individualism?

    Post by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:54 pm

    Collectivism is by far better as radical individualism is a disruptor of society, state, and nation.

    No nation can survive very long being a nation of individuals.


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    "The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

    "I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

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    "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

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    ― Robert A. Heinlein

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    “In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
    Satyr
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    Collectivism or individualism? Empty Re: Collectivism or individualism?

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:57 pm

    Zero_Sum wrote:Collectivism is by far better as radical individualism is a disruptor of society, state, and nation.

    No nation can survive very long being a nation of individuals.
    Very good....therefore American style individualism is a divide and control ideal, detaching individuals from their heritage, and their past....making them vulnerable and lost, desperate enough to grasp at symbols, and material wealth to compensate for their lost identity; desperate enough to fall for superstitions and extraordinary lies.


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    Zero_Sum
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    Collectivism or individualism? Empty Re: Collectivism or individualism?

    Post by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:05 pm

    Satyr wrote:
    Zero_Sum wrote:Collectivism is by far better as radical individualism is a disruptor of society, state, and nation.

    No nation can survive very long being a nation of individuals.
    Very good....therefore American style individualism is a divide and control ideal, detaching individuals from their heritage, and their past....making them vulnerable and lost, desperate enough to grasp at symbols, and material wealth to compensate for their lost identity; desperate enough to fall for superstitions and extraordinary lies.

    Yes, having grown up in the United States my entire life I could write a book on the entire absurdity of radical individualism and the damages it does to society as a whole. I've seen it, lived through it, and observe it often by almost everybody here.


    _________________
    "The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

    "I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

    -Thomas Hobbes-

    "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

    “To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

    “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein

    "Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

    “In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
    Satyr
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    Collectivism or individualism? Empty Re: Collectivism or individualism?

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:07 pm

    Things will get worse before the gradual collapse....more like a deflation.


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    Zero_Sum
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    Collectivism or individualism? Empty Re: Collectivism or individualism?

    Post by Zero_Sum on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:37 pm

    Satyr wrote:Things will get worse before the gradual collapse....more like a deflation.

    I would say that gradual collapse has been going on since the 1960's and we're now speeding up especially once you understand the monetary economics behind it all which I very much do.

    It was gradually slow from the 1960's to the early 2000's but once 2007 came along it has been speeding up tremendously which I fully believe we're in the end game of the collapse at present.


    _________________
    "The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

    "I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

    -Thomas Hobbes-

    "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

    “To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

    “Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein

    "Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

    “In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
    Barracuda
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    Collectivism or individualism? Empty Re: Collectivism or individualism?

    Post by Barracuda on Thu May 24, 2018 5:44 pm

    Individualism is not necessarily different from collectivism.
    Identity only exists in a collective. Granted, not all collectives provide this possibility.
    America is the most collectivistic nation there is at this point, I would say, as even dissidents can't escape chauvinism.






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