The Pathos of Distance

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The Pathos of Distance

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    Hand to Hand Combat

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    Zoot Allures

    Zoot Allures

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    • Post n°1

    Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:33 pm

    a recent email exchange between phoneutria and i. i'm glad to hear she's running and considering taking martial art classes, though i wouldn't recommend muai thai.

    phoneutria wrote:Speaking of that, so someone comes and says yo c'mere and pushes you on the chest, so you bjj (brazilian jiu-jitsu) the fuck out of him and you got him in a lock, so you're like hell yeah, but then it happens the dude has a friend, and he just waltz right in and kicks you right on the side of the head... what do? My point is, bjj is praised for being awesome for self defense, but chances you're not going to be 1 on 1 is like 50-50...

    Btw I spontaneously had a muai thai class the other day... i was running and passed in front of my friend's bar and thought imma have a beer. So I had a beer and was running back and saw the dojo thing and thought imma go in there. So I went in and the girl was like hihi haha they're having classes tight now if you want to take a peek. So I took a peek and then thought imma take off my shoes and get in there and kick shit. So I did. Then I ran home. It was fun. I think I might do the muai thai thing insyead of bjj because I don't want to get kicked in the head.

    zoot wrote:we already talked about this, pho. don't you remember? jiu-jitsu is the most efficient competitive fighting style, designed for one on one hand to hand combat. in other contexts... such as a bar fight with two or more combatants, grappling without striking techniques isn't very effective, the best mix, if you ask me, is jiu-jitsu (which is really judo) and wing-chun. wing-chun is a no bullshit, no show-boating style of fighting that focuses on fast, effective and deadly strikes. it's not a bunch of fancy shit like the other martial arts. aikido, for example, is EXTREMELY difficult to execute properly in a real fight unless you are like a fifth don.

    muai thai is essentially american style boxing with some kicking, also designed for sport fighting. of course it can be useful in a real fight, but the majority of it's kicks are unrealistic. kicking above the waist line is very dangerous and difficult to execute properly. first, your opponent sees it coming a mile away, and can catch your foot or easily step aside. you have to be VERY skilled at kicking, and who has the time to practice round-house kicks and shit like that? kicking below the waist line is all you need to be able to do. front kicks to the lower stomach, side kicks to the knee, low kicks to the shin.

    punching is natural to anyone, so practicing regular punches isn't really improving anything but your strength and stamina. what you have to learn is where and when to punch, as well as how to execute combination punch/blocks (wing-chun), which involve simultaneous blocking and striking. wing-chun penetrates into your opponents space... it doesn't keep a distance like conventional boxing. and there is very little use of hooks and upper-cuts; the punches are straight, power jabs and chops while moving forward. wing-chun is all about efficiency of movement.

    combining this stuff with wrist and arm locking is extremely useful. my philosophy is to think first about controlling your opponents hands, not about striking him. disable his ability to hit you, and your opportunity to hit him follows naturally. it is very easy to catch a swing and take control of the wrist/arm if you know how. the right pressure will drop a 250 lb man to his knees.
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    • Post n°2

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:37 pm

    this wouldn't have played out like that. van damme would have never landed those outrageous kicks. and segal would have BROKEN that foot, making van damme unable to kick with that leg. what bullshit.

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    • Post n°3

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:56 pm

    phoneutria wrote:Dude i live in a tiny town. Where am I going to find a wing-chun teacher? Muai thai, bjj and judo are all my options.
    I think muai thai is the most likely to make my ass go POW.

    Wing chun is jakob's thing isn't it? Is he good?

    zoot wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

    this is what jakob was boasting about, if i remember correctly. it's a hybrid, mixed style that borrows stuff from other predecessors. it's dirty too... lotta kneeing in the nutts and eye gouging and shit like that. effective, but nothing new. it's the latest rave though, in MMA.

    with your options, i'd take the judo. you'll be practicing punches too... not just take downs and throws. but you won't be spending time on those unrealistic kicks in muai thai. so with judo you basically get the same punching experience without wasting time on learning how to try to kick someone in the head while they're standing up. i mean come on. that only works in the movies.
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    • Post n°4

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:38 pm

    a lotta inmates on the yard practiced conventional boxing techniques because they believed martial arts was movie stuff. they thought there was nothing more to fighting than being able to punch. i remember this black dude from new york who was in for making counterfeit money. they called him 'magnetic' (i don't know why), and he was in his mid forties. golden glove boxer... and i could tell it. he wasn't one of the 'talkers' who talked a good game and thought everyone would believe he was a boxer because he could throw a punch. this dude knew his shit, was lightening fast, and knew how to train younger inmates. they'd be out on the court practicing. the basketball goal pole had a mat wrapped around it which you could punch on, and they'd do punching, blocking, and foot work drills daily. he had this one drill where two guys would hold a jump rope straight at about chest height, while a dude would duck under it, back and forth, and punch each time he came up. really creative stuff.

    so i'm watching them one day while sitting on the bench, and i ask him 'do you think there are any disadvantages to holding your guard up like that, in front of your face?' immediately he's taken aback, because he senses that i'm being critical. i tell him that that hand position can be very dangerous to the person blocking. he asks how, so i show him. we take a stance... he's got his guard up, and i'm standing sideways, knees slightly bent. i explain to him that that positioning is designed for sport fighting, and that in a situation where your opponent doesn't have gloves on and can grasp with his hands, blocking with your hands in front of your face is dangerous. in the first example i leaped forward and grabbed both of his wrists, then asked him 'now what are you going to do?' in the second example, i simply slapped his hand and made him punch himself. his hands are only inches away from his face.

    if he struggled to break my grasp of his wrists, i'd cross his arms in front of him and push him backward, or, let go of one wrist and seize the other with both hands, taking control of his arm. and where his arms goes, he goes. all this must happen in fractions of a second to avoid being punched with his free hand... and it does. there is no time to punch when you are using that arm to try to break my hold. and if i'm pushing you forward, your reflex is to prepare that other hand to catch yourself when you fall. you're not going to try and swing. likewise, if i've stepped sideways and pulled you back, you'd do the same thing.

    control of the opponents arm(s) is the best way to neutralize a boxer. he isn't expecting to be grappled with, and when you have him off balance, his instinct is to ready that other arm to catch himself. take one arm, the other is useless for striking... so long as you challenge his balance.

    to do this, you have to know where and when to move during the grapple. segal uses this movement in those aikido demos. there's a few on youtube. standing grapple is what aikido specializes in, unlike jiu-jitsu, which is ground grappling. the defensive effectiveness of properly executed wrist/arm control is incredible. problem is, aikido is very difficult to do right. but if you do.... oh man, this dude's in trouble.

    eventually magnetic submitted, and agreed that that guard, in a real fight, is an unnecessary risk. i showed him a side stance with the hands open and out in front of you at least two feet. open hands at that distance in front of you can easily intercept incoming strikes. you simply slap them off to the side.

    keeping the hands open and not balled into a fist is very important, for two reasons. you increase the area of defense by several inches; you put more in front of you... there is more to get past to connect to you. and, you don't need to open your hands if the opportunity to grab presents itself... because they're already open. fractions of a second, people, can make or break an opportunity.

    still, in a gloved match, magnetic would beat me six ways from sunday, i'm pretty sure. he punched like a machine gun.

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    • Post n°5

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:05 am

    on stances.

    a ten o'clock five o'clock stance is primarily used in boxing, and for good reason. this frontal stance keeps both arms closer to your opponent; there is a shorter distance required to connect, and since connecting gets you points, it's important to be able to connect many times. also, using the jab to set up for the haymaker. you can't use such combos as quickly in a side stance.

    but there are downfalls to the frontal stance. defensively, you open your entire front to your opponent. both of his hands can reach your vital points, because you are facing him.

    a side stance eliminates the possibility of an effective punch by one of the hands. so for instance, if i'm facing left, and you're in a frontal stance, your left hand is not going to be able to connect to anything but my back, what is behind me. back of my shoulders, back of my head. because you can't swing around with your left hand to hit me in the face or the stomach.

    most people are right handed, so you would use a right-face side stance, to prevent his stronger hand from punching you in a vital area.

    if you get in a fight, most people aren't boxers, so they won't be setting up with a jab with their weaker hand. instead, you'll find them punching with their strong hand right away. then you adjust your stance to inhibit that stronger hand.

    downfall of the side stance. one of your hands is going to be farther away than the other, making combos impossible unless you step forward while striking. in the frontal stance, you don't need to do this. on the other hand (pun intended), if you do connect with that hand, there will be much more power in that punch because you are bringing it from behind you.

    keep your legs slightly bent and about three feet apart, unless you are advancing. the farther apart your legs are, the harder it is to take you off your feet if your opponent shoots in for a take down.

    downfall of this stance. one of your legs is farther away from your opponent, requiring more time and distance in kicking. if you can (if the position corresponds to the side stance your using to prevent your opponents stronger arm from reaching you), keep your stronger leg away from the opponent.... so you can step forward into your kick, giving it much more power.

    if you insist on kicking, front kicks to the groin and stomach are the most difficult to catch, and you can retract your foot without losing your position. not so with a side kick or a round house. you have to hop back into position. and if you miss, you are vulnerable during that hop.

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    • Post n°6

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:43 pm

    of course this is choreographed, but the moves and forms are true to the styles.

    this is something that would very likely happen between a wing chun fighter and a muay thai fighter. notice the wing chun master rarely kicks, and easily handles all his opponents kicks. in turn, the muay thai fighter is wasting precious energy with all that useless kicking. you also see the closed handed boxing style wide punching by the muay thai fighter, while the wing chun fighter keeps a shorter, center striking pattern. everything comes from the inside front, and follows immediately after a block if not simultaneous to it.

    go to :32

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    • Post n°7

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 am

    oh i see what's going on. these (the one above, too) are scenes from 'ip man'. ip man was bruce lee's teacher. i've never seen the movie.

    now look at this one. first of all, that boxer is WAY out of his weight class, so ip man shouldn't even be fighting him. i don' give a damn how much wing chun you know... you can't change the laws of physics.

    but here's the point. ip man would have done much worse if he used a conventional boxing style, because of the weight and strength differences. the moral of the story: proper use of wing chun against a bigger opponent is more effective than traditional boxing. the chances of ip man actually knocking that dude out with a hook or an upper-cut are very slim. he's simply not strong enough to do so.

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    • Post n°8

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:17 am

    go to 9:35.

    look what's he's doing. he's striking the biceps of the boxer to weaken him. genius.

    in the final moments ip man puts the secret sauce on his ass. some of that whooping crane or whatever it is.
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    • Post n°9

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:54 am

    wing chun exercises. a form of 'sticky hands'.

    this is all about developing coordination and reflex. learning to be comfortable and keeping control in close quarters. we used to practice this stuff on the yard in prison. i remember the bloods (a black gang) were fascinated by all this, and first thought it was silly.

    'who is this white dude trying to show us how to fight? is this dude for real? man i'll knock this cracker out, no problem.'

    maybe, maybe not, but that's not the point. the wing chun is only as good as the user, and the user must be familiar with it, to use it. this is about the logic of hand to hand combat, and it applies to anyone. i explained to them how much better they would be if they had the option to use this stuff. you don't have to use it, but you are at least able to choose to... because you now understand it. eventually they found themselves executing these moves without thought, as they boxed. that is the purpose; to make this stuff instinctual... to make it a natural reflex in any given situation.

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    • Post n°10

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Barracuda on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:27 am

    Zoot Allures wrote:
    phoneutria wrote:Dude i live in a tiny town. Where am I going to find a wing-chun teacher? Muai thai, bjj and judo are all my options.
    I think muai thai is the most likely to make my ass go POW.

    Wing chun is jakob's thing isn't it? Is he good?

    zoot wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

    this is what jakob was boasting about, if i remember correctly. it's a hybrid, mixed style that borrows stuff from other predecessors. it's dirty too... lotta kneeing in the nutts and eye gouging and shit like that. effective, but nothing new. it's the latest rave though, in MMA.

    with your options, i'd take the judo. you'll be practicing punches too... not just take downs and throws. but you won't be spending time on those unrealistic kicks in muai thai. so with judo you basically get the same punching experience without wasting time on learning how to try to kick someone in the head while they're standing up. i mean come on. that only works in the movies.

    Jesus Christ Zoot. Good thing I saw this.
    No, I have nothing to do with Krav Maga, though my Wing Chun Sifu basically seems to have developed it.

    Yes, I am very good at it. When loose, I can definitely break a skull with a quick strike, used to shred sparring gloves, I used to scare my teachers and big fellow students refused to spar with me. But then I have a background of internal arts, without which Wing Chun isn't nearly as useful.

    Here is my teacher demonstrating the basic form.



    I recommend a Chi Gong backed course in Wing Chun together with Systema, which has all you'd want from bjj, and a lot more all round efficiency.

    As the proper martial art is supposed to do, ever since I realized I mastered this method Ive been able to intimidate basically everyone that threatens me into backing off, because I know I can kill with one or two well placed strikes. Just assuming the right flexibility in the neck, hips and ankles is often enough to clarify your position.

    Mind you, Im not an idiot and I realize there are many warriors that would be able to beat me. I wouldn't be able to take on a man like Ernesto Hoost, whom I find the most terrifying martial artist. I wouldn't expect to beat some black ops expert. But in as far as realistic self defence skills go, Im okay.


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    • Post n°11

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:19 pm

    barracuda wrote:When loose, I can definitely break a skull with a quick strike

    no, you can't, jakob. stop it. this isn't nintendo.

    if you reared back and then swung a balled fist with all your strength, you might cause a fracture in a skull bone. the skull is the hardest bone in the body. you'd break your hand sooner than you'd break a skull.

    barracuda wrote:used to shred sparring gloves

    no, you didn't, jakob. stop it. this isn't nintendo.

    blunt force to sparring gloves wouldn't shred the material they're made of. they might begin to tear after prolonged use due to a weakening of the seams, but not because of your super, inhuman strength.

    barracuda wrote:I used to scare my teachers and big fellow students refused to spar with me.

    that's a little more believable. not much more, but more nonetheless.

    barracuda wrote:But then I have a background of internal arts, without which Wing Chun isn't nearly as useful.

    i don't think anything more is required to utilize the wing chun principles. its purpose is to demonstrate the logic involved in close quarter hand to hand combat. it needs nothing to substantiate this logic; it is self evident. all that is required to do this stuff is a level of physical fitness and coordination. you can reach that level through any kind of physical exercise, whether it be tai chi or mowing the lawn.

    one wouldn't be predisposed to be better at wing chun because they practiced the way of the lofty lotus on a mountain in tibet somewhere. they'd be predisposed to be better because they were physically able, no matter how they became physically able.

    anyway, keep in mind that the training... the formal moves, are only for the purpose of understanding the most logical and efficient kinds of movement in a close quarter situation... so that they become reflexes.

    in a real fight, split second decisions must be made, and rarely will such moves be executed fully or properly. by the time you realize what your opponent has done, it's too late to prevent it. you'll see this in real wing chun tournaments. the fights are far less organized and streamlined than the training exercises are. the fighters end up brawling with minimal form.

    you see the same thing in the octagon. regardless of what style the fighter trains in, they all end up with the same basic form when fighting. you don't see any complicated, three part combinations being executed... because they rarely can be.

    the only exception is in the grappling. only there is technical form actually observed. but on the feet, everybody looks like a boxer.

    my point is, if a martial art teacher ever tells you 'you'll win if you know these exercises', he's bullshitting you. what he should tell you is 'these exercises help you respond better and more efficiently to a real fight.'

    unfortunately, most of the teachers are clowns and misunderstand the philosophy behind the style. of course, they may be great fighters, but an idiot can be a great fighter, and be a great fighter because of reasons that have nothing to do with truly understanding the art, what it is, and what it is for.

    this is why i wouldn't ever have a teacher in martial arts. i don't need a teacher to understand what is universally available to anyone who can understand the logic of fighting.

    my only experience with formal martial art training was when i was in my twenties. i used to go to my friend's wing chun and aikido training sessions and mess around with them after class. but i didn't pay for anything, and only observed them training. the sensei often got tired of my pestering him:

    'but why would you do that, if he did this? now you've made your balance vulnerable by shifting your left leg into that position, right?'

    'yeah but then i'd do this, and if he did that, i'd then do this.'

    back and forth this would go.

    what i noticed is that the teacher always believed that a real fight would play out like he expected. he had to do this, because if he didn't demonstrate that confidence to his students, they'd no longer trust him, and he'd lose his business.

    he was lying. he was 'selling' martial arts... he was a salesman trying to sell a product without a warranty. that's where he went wrong.

    the teachers always do a terrible job at explaining everything. look at this guy. i'm pretty sure he could kick my ass... but what a spastic clown this guy is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1F-vXRFgyM&t=191s

    calm the fuck down, dude, and stop drinking three creatine shakes every morning. one is enough.
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    • Post n°12

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Barracuda on Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:35 pm

    "no, you didn't, jakob. stop it. this isn't nintendo. "

    Yes, you douche. I certainly did. Stop thinking everyone is a liar.



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    • Post n°13

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Barracuda on Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:36 pm

    Your disbelief in this sort of strength computes well with your ignorance of the fact that Wing Chun comes with an internal art.


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    • Post n°14

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Barracuda on Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:39 pm

    Honestly I can't even fathom how you would come to the conclusion that Id be lying about stuff like this.
    On the other hand, you think Turd is a genius and you tolerate Satyr. So there's that...

    Dude. Wake Up.


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    • Post n°15

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Barracuda on Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:40 pm



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    • Post n°16

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Barracuda on Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:44 pm

    The guy holding the cushion was terrified, he said "je zal dat maar tegen je kop krijgen". Google translate that.

    Granted they weren't new gloves. Still, I really did ram the punching bag out of the ceiling that same session. Yes, that happened. My sifu then, the enemy of the above sifu who first taught me, was not amused.


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    • Post n°17

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Barracuda on Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:53 pm

    Russian internal arts.



    First he shows a normal lineair punch. Then an instant, circular mind-punch using the spiralling principle of force displacement. You won't have much use of Wing Chun against a group of opponents without mastering part 3 of the first form, the unlocking of circular power.

    All of Wing Chun, Weng Chun, Aikido and Systema are layers on top of simple physics of the body.
    Krav Maga is not included in this list. That is, like Wing Chun in the myth, an art especially designed for women but only includes striking on weak spots, "pressure points".

    Of course steel has no pressure points, and real fighting arts prepare you to be as hard as steel in your delivery of force.  
    The 7 joint elongation.
    Much to learn, kid.



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    • Post n°18

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:46 pm

    Your disbelief in this sort of strength computes well with your ignorance of the fact that Wing Chun comes with an internal art.

    oh dear, you're one of those guys. the ones who think extra-human strength can be gained by mystical martial art knowledge or chakra training and all that nonsense. i promise you, nothing you are taught to believe will enhance your strength. you can become stronger through exercise and weight lifting, but not by burning incense and sitting in full lotus reciting secret tibetan chants.

    i bet you even think that famous five inch punch bruce lee sent that guy flying backward with, was real.

    On the other hand, you think Turd is a genius and you tolerate Satyr.

    better than thinking satyr is a genius and tolerating the turd, no?

    but no, i don't throw the word 'genius' around lightly. a lotta you guys are very intelligent, but i'm not sure about genius.

    Still, I really did ram the punching bag out of the ceiling that same session.

    that's because the guy who hung it missed the ceiling joists when he mounted the bracket the chain is hooked to. or, he hit the ceiling joists and the bracket mount was weak, or, he hit the ceiling joists, the bracket mount was fine, but the joists were rotted.

    First he shows a normal lineair punch. Then an instant, circular mind-punch using the spiralling principle of force displacement. You won't have much use of Wing Chun against a group of opponents without mastering part 3 of the first form, the unlocking of circular power.

    'unlocking of circular power'. lol. let me explain. the punch from in front primarily uses triceps when the arm extends, while the punch from the side activates more of the pectorals and anterior deltoids, as well as the triceps, giving much more power to the punch.

    this is why a hook punch is much more powerful than a jab.

    nothing about 'unlocking the secret power of the russian systema punch', dude. simple physics explains what is happening here. people were punching like that long before any 'systema' ever existed.

    Much to learn, kid.

    thank you, sensei jakob. i hope to one day become a great warrior like you.

    *bows*
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    • Post n°19

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:37 am

    This is what happens when idealism faces realism....



    The myth revolving around Bruce Lee among boys raised during the 70's and 80's is a testament to how an idol can be manufactured.
    Boys grew up to believe in this supernatural spirituality.



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    • Post n°20

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:44 am

    of course. bruce lee was 75% hollywood and 25% fighter. when he came to america movie producers took advantage of the opportunity to sensationalize martial arts and turn it into a trendy commodity. then came all the myths about secret chinese martial art powers and what not. hey man, that shit sells. you can't blame them.

    and yes, chuck norris would absolutely beat bruce lee in a real tournament. chuck norrism is real, and has even been recently established as a pseudo-religious movement at ILP.

    in the beginning there was chuck norris. chuck norris created himself ex nihilo... and then starred in texas walker ranger. this is the beginning of the enlightenment period, when man began losing faith in chuck norris.

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    Zoot Allures

    Zoot Allures

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    • Post n°21

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:01 pm

    look at these cornballs. they're pretending to be open and cooperative with each other, but really each one thinks the other is wrong. they're pretending because they're on camera.

    the boxer's criticism of wing chun also stands for everything about boxing... and sometimes even more so for boxing. he talks about stances, but doesn't understand the vulnerabilities of the traditional boxing stance with fisted hands blocking the face (i explained this several posts above).

    the wing chun 'teacher' feels that such a boxer and the space they are in would be out of his element. that's not true. there is nothing about a boxer's footwork that's makes any substantial difference to the effect of the fight, nor does the wing chun practitioner necessarily stay 'static', as he claims.

    wrong, wrong, wrong. the martial art industry is full of shallow clowns like this. again, they may be great fighters, but their teaching leaves much to be desired.



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    Zoot Allures

    Zoot Allures

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    • Post n°22

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:11 pm

    lol. the whole time this guy with the gel in his hair is thinking 'nuh-uh... you wouldn't be able to do that because i would do this, etc.,' but he's biting his tongue and letting the boxer lead. gel's in a difficult position; if he admits wing chun is inferior, he compromises his livelihood as a teacher... but if he disagrees with the boxer, he creates tension that isn't good for the video.

    and the way he stands there and acts genuinely interested in the boxer's babbling. fuck it. i can't bear to watch anymore of it.
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    Zoot Allures

    Zoot Allures

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    • Post n°23

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

    Post by Zoot Allures on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:14 pm

    omg.

    the boxer just said... and i quote...'stremf'.
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    • Post n°24

    Re: Hand to Hand Combat

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