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The Pathos of Distance

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witchdoctor

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by witchdoctor on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:51 pm

Bring Lyssa.
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:57 am

witchdoctor wrote:Bring Lyssa.
She's not my pet.


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Zoot Allures

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:08 am

attention Socrates (Turd Ferguson): if you wish to gossip about and/or criticize other members, do it publicly, not in PMs to me. this is not the young and the restless.

change your name to the Turd we all remember and love the most, roll your sleeves up, and get back in the game.
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:10 am

Zoot Allures wrote:attention Socrates (Turd Ferguson): if you wish to gossip about and/or criticize other members, do it publicly, not in PMs to me. this is not the young and the restless.

just change your name back to the Turd we all love most, roll your sleeves up, and get back in the game.
He sent one to my as well.
Now he's got a beef.


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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:24 am

Ollie is the poster-child of Nihilistic inverse, Top<>Down emoting.
He's reinvented Christianity, to accommodate Nietzsche's critiques, by adopting some of the metaphors.
Imagine preferring to be someone else's representation than face the world on your own.
A feminine psychology, a follower.  

God is not our fabrication, but we are his.....we do not fabricate the one, the one fabricates us.
Top<>Down emoting.
I only speak of things I can substantiate with real evidence....no theories referring to theories. At some point a theory has to connect to the real, or remain a hypothesis built on words referring to more words, and finally to a sacred manuscript of the final WORD.
Nietzsche discredited Abrahamism and then made men-children so lost, and so desperate for an alternative, that they imprinted on him.
The alpha that kills the alpha that was, is often fought by his minions, his females...but when the dominant alpha that was loses, the females adopt the new male as their new leader, and stand aside as he kills the offspring the previous male fathered.
It's a basic feminine disposition. King killers are submitted to as the new kings...god killers, as the new god.
Addictive personalities are prone to obsessiveness. Cults are built on this psychological fact.


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Zoot Allures

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:33 am

His writing is an ersatz of Nietzsche's style. Full of metaphorical, mythological, literati references, with nothing of his own. He has been thoroughly fertilized by Frank. He can't even develop his own style.

he's got a good balance of both. you are reading selectively and seeing nothing but his quotes. and that's part of what makes him a great thinker; his ability to learn by reading, to remember what he's read, and then make connections between such ideas to form a unique approach to a subject. he is not only doing philosophy, but also philology.

i'm not talking about whether or not he's 'right', i'm talking about his method and his ability as a writer, which remains exceptional even if he is wrong.

have you looked at his tutorial post? plenty of original stuff in there.

remember, english is a second language to him, too.

and who is 'frank'? frank zappa? don't i wish. the only thing by zappa he owns is cheap thrills, and this disappoints me. there is so much more and better stuff.
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:48 am

Zoot Allures wrote:he's got a good balance of both. you are reading selectively and seeing nothing but his quotes. and that's part of what makes him a great thinker; his ability to learn by reading, to remember what he's read, and then make connections between such ideas to form a unique approach to a subject. he is not only doing philosophy, but also philology.
He would make a good academic, not a philosopher.
An art critic is not an artist.

Schopenhauer wrote:Thus a man who thinks for himself only subsequently becomes acquainted with the authorities for his opinions when they serve merely to confirm him therein and to encourage him.
The book-philosopher, on the other hand, starts from those authorities in that he constructs for himself an entire system from the opinions of others which he has collected in the course of his reading
.

Zoot Allures wrote:i'm not talking about whether or not he's 'right', i'm talking about his method and his ability as a writer, which remains exceptional even if he is wrong.
I am also talking about the fact that he is a nihilist....I cannot ignore the outcome of a performance. It exposes the psychology and the motive.
I can admire the handiwork of a mass murderer, to use a vulgar metaphor, but not forget the outcome, his intent. It points to the essence of the mind - the motive underlying its interactions.

Zoot Allures wrote:have you looked at his tutorial post? plenty of original stuff in there.

remember, english is a second language to him, too.
Yes...I keep this in mind.

As a self-designated diagnostician, fighting against the virus I've identified as Nihilism, the linguistic parasite I immunize those who want to be free from its pleasing infestations, I cannot help but include him among the infected masses of zombies.
A gifted one, but still brain-dead.

Like I said...in an age of declining literature and specialized education, and diminishing linguistic artistry, the one who can display some linguistic talent is rare. Literati is rare and impressive; in a world where nobody reads books, but only watches films or listens to music.
Knowledge is not understanding.  

I consider you a more gifted mind than him. you display creativity, flexibility, an ability to think around topics, to engulf them in your mind, not through proxies.
A follower uses an authority as his deference, implying that he is that, by association.
It's pretense.
Ollie is a hypocrite.
But I'll let you discover this on your own...in time, if ever you get the chance.

Zoot Allures wrote:and who is 'frank'? frank zappa? don't i wish. the only thing by zappa he owns is cheap thrills, and this disappoints me. there is so much more and better stuff.
There can only be ONE in his mind.


Last edited by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total


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Zoot Allures

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:07 am

have you even done hallucinogens, satyr? ever been in a significantly distorted state of mind so strange that it challenges everything you thought you knew about reality?

i've done hallucinogens plenty of times when i was younger... but the strangest experience i've ever had was on coke. lots of it. among other things, it triggers an intense state of paranoia, and during these states i've seen them. i call them the shadow people, and they can only be seen at night. the hallucinations are so real that i literally forget that i'm tripping. like the part of my mind that says 'hey dude, these are hallucinations' is temporarily shut down.

one time i was camping by myself and did some coke by the fire in the middle of the night. i hear a great horned owl in the distance, then the shadow people started coming around the peripheral of my camp. it was so real that i armed myself with my survival knife, got up, and walked toward the woods shouting 'come on, then, you cowards!' i remember i started growling like an animal, crouched down like a tiger as i crept, ready to attack. i shit you not man. they moved about between the shadows but kept their distance. i even heard the leaves ruffling under their feet as they moved. i followed them around, growling and snickering like i was mad. it was a full moon, and the woods were lit up with that eerie glow. i'm totally jacked on adrenaline and dopamine... i can hear the slightest sound, smell everything, and see details a hundred feet away. my strength, balance, coordination, everything was enhanced. superhuman. it was a metamorphosis into another animal dude.

now what do i make of that experience? of course, it was all a hallucination. but what if it wasn't? what if this altered state gave me sensory powers i couldn't have while sober? well then, those shadow people were real. so what the fuck were they? i broke through the door, dude, and caught a glimpse of the other side.
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:17 am

Zoot Allures wrote:have you even done hallucinogens, satyr? ever been in a significantly distorted state of mind so strange that it challenges everything you thought you knew about reality?
I only drink, mostly wine....but I've cut down on that. Never got drunk enough to lose my senses, even when I was on the hard stuff, mostly vodka and cognac.
I don't have an addictive personality. I smoked for ten years and then decided to quit cold-turkey.
It's biological.....how your body chemistry works. You, and many others, do have an addictive personalty.

Zoot Allures wrote:i've done hallucinogens plenty of times when i was younger... but the strangest experience i've ever had was on coke. lots of it. among other things, it triggers an intense state of paranoia, and during these states i've seen them. i call them the shadow people, and they can only be seen at night. the hallucinations are so real that i literally forget that i'm tripping. like the part of my mind that says 'hey dude, these are hallucinations' is temporarily shut down.
And you thought  that this mind-altering triggering of neurons, expanding and extending your sensory input was what?

Zoot Allures wrote:one time i was camping by myself and did some coke by the fire in the middle of the night. i hear a great horned owl in the distance. then the shadow people started coming around the peripheral of my camp. it was so real that i armed myself with my survival knife, got up, and walked toward the woods shouting 'come on, then, you cowards!' i remember i started growling like an animal, crouched down like a tiger as i crept, ready to attack. i shit you not man. they moved about between the shadows but kept their distance. i even heard the leaves ruffling under their feet. i followed them around, growling and snickering like i was insane. it was a full moon, and the woods were lit up with that eerie glow. i'm totally jacked on adrenaline and dopamine... i can hear the slightest sound, smell everything, and see details a hundred feet away. my strength, balance, coordination, everything was enhanced. superhuman. it was a metamorphosis into another animal dude.
Listen...I know the common ground you share with the van clan. It's why I told you that I was uncertain if you would go for their cult message....shortly after you came out of prison.
It's then that cults attempt to proselytize...when the other is most vulnerable, most in need of friends, of support, of an alternative reality to the one they cannot cope with.

Zoot Allures wrote:now what do i make of that experience? of course, it was all a hallucination. but what if it wasn't? what if this altered state gave me sensory powers i couldn't have while sober? well then, those shadow people were real. so what the fuck were they? i broke through the door, dude, and caught a glimpse of the other side.
Drugs allow your internal demons to express themselves via a metaphor....like in dreams.
When you dream it is your body exposing itself to the mind, using the mind's abstractions.
These 'shadow people' are your evaluation of the animosity you feel coming from the world, or a representation of an incomprehensible, for you, factor, concerning humans and their hidden motives.
You sense that people are not genuine....they have a shadow...Jung. Though they seem friendly and kind, there's something sinister, something they are withholding.
Read Jung on man and his shadow.

I call it the personae, in relation to the social, external character.
This underlying shadow, in all people, is what you feel threatened by. When you become inebriated this comes out. It is your shadow.


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Zoot Allures

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:28 am

schopenhauer used kant as a launch pad, then went in his own direction. saully uses nietzsche as a launch pad, and then sets off into his own direction. he disagrees with nietzsche in several instances. you would see this if you weren't bias.

you don't seem to realize that most of the major philosophical ideas that are possible, already exist, and have existed since the turn of the twentieth century. therefore it is difficult not to cite other philosophers constantly when doing philosophy. if you think you have something truly original, chances are it's already been thought of.

your own ideas are nothing new. they are variations of an already existing theme. you're just either not aware of it, or aware of it and choosing not to reference any of it.

nihilism, memes, emasculation of men, it's all been done before. just like this VO stuff. none of it is groundbreaking... it's just a conglomerate piecemeal collection of concepts taken from here and there. if you took the sum total of VO propositions and put them on the table, you would find the same problems inherent to such reasoning as you would find in any other ontology. simply because of the nature of ontology and the type of statements it makes.

and it would never make it past the fact/value distinction that so many experienced thinkers recognize as a real problem.

i don't think saully is a nihilist. you two just define nihilism differently.

Zoot Allures

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:42 am

satyr wrote:Listen...I know the common ground you share with the van clan. It's why I told you that I was uncertain if you would go for their cult message....shortly after you came out of prison.
It's then that cults attempt to proselytize...when the other is most vulnerable, most in need of friends, of support, of an alternative reality to the one they cannot cope with.

i couldn't ever join a cult unless i started it, because i can't take orders, only give them. and i'm not trying to start a cult, especially with those who are available for forming a cult. not the right people. i'd want to purchase land, build a self-sustaining commune with crops, organized sports and schools for the children, the whole nine yards. i don't wanna sit around taking bong-hits and discussing VO, dude. if i'm gonna do it, i'm gonna do it right.

just got word that stephen hawking died. son of a bitch.

"oh but he does play dice... he just throws them where you can't see them..."

one day we'll enter a blackhole, steve. don't you worry.

rest well, and tell sagan i said 'sup'.
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witchdoctor

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:48 am

Satyr wrote:Ollie is the poster-child of Nihilistic inverse, Top<>Down emoting.
He's reinvented Christianity, to accommodate Nietzsche's critiques, by adopting some of the metaphors.
Imagine preferring to be someone else's representation than face the world on your own.
A feminine psychology, a follower.  

God is not our fabrication, but we are his.....we do not fabricate the one, the one fabricates us.
Top<>Down emoting.
I only speak of things I can substantiate with real evidence....no theories referring to theories. At some point a theory has to connect to the real, or remain a hypothesis built on words referring to more words, and finally to a sacred manuscript of the final WORD.
Nietzsche discredited Abrahamism and then made men-children so lost, and so desperate for an alternative, that they imprinted on him.
The alpha that kills the alpha that was, is often fought by his minions, his females...but when the dominant alpha that was loses, the females adopt the new male as their new leader, and stand aside as he kills the offspring the previous male fathered.
It's a basic feminine disposition. King killers are submitted to as the new kings...god killers, as the new god.
Addictive personalities are prone to obsessiveness. Cults are built on this psychological fact.

You seem to be stuck, yourself.
All you see is you vs christianity, everywhere.
However, it is not even a proper christianity vs something else position.
It is that whatever you don't like must be christianity.
You don't even realize the irony, that by rejecting the monadic nature of the universe, you make yourself more of a christian than anyone else in this forum.
It's unfortunate that someone who supposedly is a thinker has cemented his own mind so firmly.
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:01 am

Zoot Allures wrote:schopenhauer used kant as a launch pad, then went in his own direction. saully uses nietzsche as a launch pad, and then sets off into his own direction. he disagrees with nietzsche in several instances. you would see this if you weren't bias.

you don't seem to realize that most of the major philosophical ideas that are possible, already exist, and have existed since the turn of the twentieth century. therefore it is difficult not to cite other philosophers constantly when doing philosophy. if you think you have something truly original, chances are it's already been thought of.
No shit....and this is why I never claimed to have invented a new philosophy.
My contributions, whatever these may be, focus on nihilism as a psychology.
You ignored the quote and went strait to ad hom with Schopenhauer.
Is his insight correct or not?

Zoot Allures wrote:your own ideas are nothing new. they are variations of an already existing theme. you're just either not aware of it, or aware of it and choosing not to reference any of it.
Have you ever seen me say I invented something groundbreaking, and new?
Have you ever seen me declare myself god, or an reincarnation of whomever? Have I ever said I was the ideal?
Ever.
I'm a diagnostician....and that's all.
Aside from that I am Satyr, or nobody and nothing - Outis.
I do not even place much stock in metaphysics.

Zoot Allures wrote:nihilism, memes, emasculation of men, it's all been done before. just like this VO stuff. none of it is groundbreaking... it's just a conglomerate piecemeal collection of concepts taken from here and there. if you took the sum total of VO propositions and put them on the table, you would find the same problems inherent to such reasoning as you would find in any other ontology. simply because of the nature of ontology and the type of statements it makes.
No, not in this way.

Nihilism, the concept, is part of nihilism the linguistically transmitted memetic virus.
Nihilists have defined nihilism, the attitude.

Zoot Allures wrote:and it would never make it past the fact/value distinction that so many experienced thinkers recognize as a real problem.

i don't think saully is a nihilist. you two just define nihilism differently.  
Nihilism: that which annuls the sensually, empirically, perceived and projects into it an alternate reality, usually considered occult, or an underlying more real reality.

Nihilists names a world void of God, meaning, universal morality, purpose a nil....which is the opposite of what it is, because this nil, void of these human constructs, is what makes life possible.

Top<>Down thinking....represented perfectly in the vid of Ollie.
You begin with an absolute truth, and think backward, from there...and when no empirical data supports you, seek validation in text, via a proxy...words referring to words.
Noumena connecting to noumena, using symbols/words.
Language linking mental abstractions to other mental abstractions...circumventing the world.
All theory, no pragmatism.

Theory supported by references, quotes....not by empirical evidence, the active.
First comes the word...and the word can be God, or ONE.
Reinventing Christianity.


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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:04 am

Zoot Allures wrote:
satyr wrote:Listen...I know the common ground you share with the van clan. It's why I told you that I was uncertain if you would go for their cult message....shortly after you came out of prison.
It's then that cults attempt to proselytize...when the other is most vulnerable, most in need of friends, of support, of an alternative reality to the one they cannot cope with.

i couldn't ever join a cult unless i started it, because i can't take orders, only give them. and i'm not trying to start a cult, especially with those who are available for forming a cult. not the right people. i'd want to purchase land, build a self-sustaining commune with crops, organized sports and schools for the children, the whole nine yards. i don't wanna sit around taking bong-hits and discussing VO, dude. if i'm gonna do it, i'm gonna do it right.

Unfortunately few are the people nowadays who are able to work the land and produce the means of living from basic materials, who aren't already doing it on their own.


just got word that stephen hawking died. son of a bitch.

"oh but he does play dice... he just throws them where you can't see them..."

one day we'll enter a blackhole, steve. don't you worry.

rest well, and tell sagan i said 'sup'.

He did live long and prosper, despite it all.
He was a fruitful man.
I drank to his memory in the late hours of night
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:06 am

witchdoctor wrote:
Satyr wrote:Ollie is the poster-child of Nihilistic inverse, Top<>Down emoting.
He's reinvented Christianity, to accommodate Nietzsche's critiques, by adopting some of the metaphors.
Imagine preferring to be someone else's representation than face the world on your own.
A feminine psychology, a follower.  

God is not our fabrication, but we are his.....we do not fabricate the one, the one fabricates us.
Top<>Down emoting.
I only speak of things I can substantiate with real evidence....no theories referring to theories. At some point a theory has to connect to the real, or remain a hypothesis built on words referring to more words, and finally to a sacred manuscript of the final WORD.
Nietzsche discredited Abrahamism and then made men-children so lost, and so desperate for an alternative, that they imprinted on him.
The alpha that kills the alpha that was, is often fought by his minions, his females...but when the dominant alpha that was loses, the females adopt the new male as their new leader, and stand aside as he kills the offspring the previous male fathered.
It's a basic feminine disposition. King killers are submitted to as the new kings...god killers, as the new god.
Addictive personalities are prone to obsessiveness. Cults are built on this psychological fact.

You seem to be stuck, yourself.
All you see is you vs christianity, everywhere.
So, let me get this right.....all around me zombies...and I should ignore them and discuss flowers.
Not me vs Christianity, dear.
Realism vs nihilism....Christianity Islam, Judaism, Marxism, post-modernism.....
Realism vs Idealism disconnected from world.
I can discuss my fantasies about my ideal world and do a good job....but this mental masturbation has gone too far.
Men are now claiming to be trapped in female bodies....in their fantasies. Things have proceeded into the absurd, the surreal.
Our civilization is declining and this is its feebleness becoming evident. You can play games with words, I choose to do what I can.

Can you feel what it must fell like to decapitate the living-dead.
More sport.

witchdoctor wrote:However, it is not even a proper christianity vs something else position.
It is that whatever you don't like must be christianity.
You don't even realize the irony, that by rejecting the monadic nature of the universe, you make yourself more of a christian than anyone else in this forum.
It's unfortunate that someone who supposedly is a thinker has cemented his own mind so firmly.
Yes...whatever I do not like.....I say Nihilism you say Christianity....
Christianity is a variant of Nihilism. There are many others.
Not only Christianity....
What I do not 'realize' you can take advantage of. I want you to.
Christianity is monism....one variant.
God is the absolute...the ONE. Ollie gave us the same, suing different words...he's a crypto-Christian assimilating Nietzsche into a repackaged, re-branded, product.
My positions are open-ended and engaged in multiplicity, building a higher probability of precedent.
No closure.
I await a challenge...to free myself from the rigidity of my fluid understanding.
Show me a 'one' an indivisible, immutable absolute....a one god.
Look at the irony in yourself, and stop projecting vengefully.


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Zoot Allures

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Zoot Allures on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:31 am

schopenhauer wrote:Thus a man who thinks for himself only subsequently becomes acquainted with the authorities for his opinions when they serve merely to confirm him therein and to encourage him. The book-philosopher, on the other hand, starts from those authorities in that he constructs for himself an entire system from the opinions of others which he has collected in the course of his reading.

but a philosopher is not a tabula rasa when he starts thinking. he learns a shared language and the concepts contained in the language, then begins to understand the world. thus, there is never a real difference between the types schopenhauer addresses.

the only truly original work that is possible is in science and mathematics, not philosophy. philosophy is a collection of language games that follows pre-established rules, or rather self-generating rules as the games are played. a theory in science and mathematics can come out of the blue. take einstein's relativity. newtonian physics didn't lead him to his idea... while ideas in philosophy are always led by already existing paradigmatic language games.

funny that i should mention this now, as hawking just died. he once said a philosopher is a failed scientist. lol.

so no, schopenhauer is frontin'. he cannot unattach himself and his thoughts from his debt to kant, just like kant can't unattach himself from hume, and so on down the line, all the way to the first cavemen who asked the first questions about the world. language, knowledge, all an inter-subjective continuum that evolves through davidsonian triangulation.
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:46 am

Read again....he does not say a thinker is a tabula rasa.


Maybe this can help...

Schopenhauer wrote:Those who have spent their lives reading and have drawn their wisdom from books resemble men who have acquired precise information about a country from many descriptions of travel. They are able to give much information about things, but at bottom they have really no coherent, clear, and thorough knowledge of the nature of the country.


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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:57 am

Satyr wrote:Show me a 'one' an indivisible, immutable absolute....a one god.

Can you quote me or Mitra-Sauwelios saying anything about "indivisible", "immutable", or "absolute"?
Are you sure it is men you are talking to, not strawmen?
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:00 am

witchdoctor wrote:
Satyr wrote:Show me a 'one' an indivisible, immutable absolute....a one god.

Can you quote me or Mitra-Sauwelios saying anything about "indivisible", "immutable", or "absolute"?
Are you sure it is men you are talking to, not strawmen?

He says primordial ONE.
Absolute.
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Top<>Down thinking....he begins with the solution....all is one....and then works backwards.
Quotes are used to find in noumena support for his ONEness.
Dead guys cannot rise and correct you...so you can define them as you like. But not the real.
This is easier when the dead guy wrote using metaphors.

Another term for one, is god.
We are god's fantasies...or his representations.
Not god our projection, our representation of the ideal....but the inverse.


Last edited by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 am; edited 2 times in total


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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:02 am

I am sure I know what I am talking about, and now I am sure that you do not.
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Satyr

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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:04 am

Then live and enjoy this certainty.
Why do you think I care?
You have no argument...now you project your insecurities.


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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:09 am

Satyr wrote:Then live and enjoy this certainty.
Why do you think I care?
You have no argument...now you project your insecurities.

Again:

witchdoctor wrote:Can you quote me or Mitra-Sauwelios saying anything about "indivisible", "immutable", or "absolute"?

Do you have an argument?
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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:10 am

Did he not say Primordial ONE?


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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by Satyr on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:14 am

What does the great sage say we are in relation to the PRIMORDIAL ONE.
I can't quote a sound bite, dear. Do you have ears? The primordial one's hearing is poor in you.


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Re: forum requests, suggestions and announcements

Post by witchdoctor on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:18 am

Yes.
In which language is the word ONE synonym with indivisible and immutable?

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Current date/time is Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:31 am