Rosa Lichtenstein on philosophy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Simple question, Monty: why do we need philosophy if science can tell us all we need to know about reality, and philosophy can only tell us about an unreal world full of a priori 'facts' of mystical provenance, each and every one the result of a misuse of language?
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Philosophy is far too confused to be evil.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:After 2500 years of going nowhere slowly, Philosophy has rather discredited itself.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Science provides all the answers we need; you do not need anything else.
If you want 'ethics' read a good novel, or ask a priest.
Better still, give up your need for anyone or anything to guide you in this area.
It is far too servile of you.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:This has been argued many times here.
In 2500 years, philosophers have solved not one single problem. In fact, philosophers have yet to decide what a 'correct' answer would even look like.
So, if anything, the history of the subject is its own worse enemy, and is telling us in its own sweet way that the whole enterprise is as bogus as it is useless.
More details here:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2012_01.htm
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:What job is it of philosophers to tell scientists what to do?
And what have scientists been doing all these years? They have made huge strides in understanding the world; philosophers have made zero progress.
And I speak of science the way I do since it is a practice that has gone on for well over 2500 years, which, of course, has reacted with philosophy (often in a Platonistic way), but which exists in many forms, so that no one definition can capture it.
Now that is a description of science, albeit very brief (but a la Wittgenstein); now you need to say why you think there could be one definition of the diverse things scientists have done and still do, and why scientists should pay any attention at all to philosophers, who cannot even make their minds up what a 'thing' is (after 2400 years of trying)!
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: To answer questions, one uses philosphy.
If a question is answerable, philosophy is not needed; if it is not answerable, philosophy is no use.
I have 2500 years of failed attempts of philosophers to show I am right.
A small point, but one worth making.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Why is it a philosopher of science who defines science? Well because that’s what philosophy of science largely is, it asks the question what is science. Now the actual individual who defines the method used in investigation doesn’t have to be professionally trained as a philosopher of science but they take on that role by asking and answering those questions.
2500 years later, no definition, no answers, but loads of science.
Any wonder scientists by-and-large think philosophy is c*ap?
But, you stay enigmatic, that should help.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Duhem was a scientist and Poicare a mathematician. I agree with you that these two are well worth reading, but I do not include them in the list of 'French Philosophers' since, as you say, they weren't philsophers, and hence knew what they were talking about.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Emma, thanks for that reminder, but what has Philosophy got to do with 'examination'?
[A 'fantasised life' is not worth living would have been more accurate, but Socrates would not have said that, even if it is a more
appropriate saying with respect to Philosophy.]
2500 years later, and not one result to show for it, I think history has passed an appropriate judgement on Philosophy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:All meaningless questions.
1) Is there a god?
Meaningless, since it contains at least one empty term: 'god'.
2) I must have free will.
Meaningless, for the same reason except we have here an empty phrase 'free will'.
And just because I reject all philosophy does not mean I am not curious about nature; I just look to science to tell me what it contains.
[I refrain from commenting about moral issues, since I am not a priest.]
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:In science, this is just a question of the use of words (i.e., which convention to adopt)
In philosophy, it is a question of setting up necessary truths (or falsehoods), etc.. based on the misuse of language.
No comparison.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Even if science had produced just one result in 2400 years, that would still be more than that which traditional philosophy has managed in the same interval.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:To be honest, I do find some of it intriguing (and a few passeges here and there that you could describe with those words), but you could say the same for passages from the Bible.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:As I say, an illegitimate set of topics, and a well-trodden way of going nowhere slowly. But, you can waste you time on this; who am I to stop you? If 2500 years of pointless inquiry won't convince you, I certainly cannot.
May I suggest you stop trying to rope me in, though. I learnt over 25 years ago what it seems you have yet to wake up to.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:The only use for metaphysics is to fill books, and thus provide fuel for Hume's bonfire.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Sartre's work makes no sense; Kant's very little.
It is up to you to decide if mine does or does not (I am hardly a neutral judge of my own work).
In which case, I am the wrong person to ask if my work is or is not better/more important than the meaningless prose philosophers have inflicted on humanity.
And I cannot accept that philosophers are trying to change the world with their work (as opposed to their political activity, such as it was); if they are then Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky was as valid an attempt to do so as Sartre's 'Being and Nothingness' was.
Except, the Jabberwocky made more sense.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Monty it's from The German Ideology:
"Masturbation is to sex as philosophy is to reality."
'Philosophy stands in the same relation to the study of the actual world as masturbation to sexual love.'
— Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels, The German Ideology
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:1) It's not a theory.
2) Wittgenstein originated this idea. It is not mine. I just push it further and harder than he ever did.
3) I have demonstrated in an earlier post in another recent thread (the one which began with determinism, but ended discussing this very topic) just how philosophical ideas arise from a distortion of language -- to an extent I reckon you could not match.
I challenge you to find any flaws in it; until then you should refrain from advertising your own ignorance.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Indeed, he originated the idea that all Philosophy is nonsense, but not the idea that it was mystical.
I asserted the former, but not the latter.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Other than a liking for self-inflicted pain (or having a course to pass, or in the grip of an attention-seeking personality disorder), why else would you want to do it?
That, it seems to me, is the only real 'value' of traditional philosophy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:I give not one hoot what it means, it is still a priori dogma.
You might as well quote the New Testament at me for all the good it will do.
In fact, in comparison to some of the stuff you have posted, the New Testament makes a lot more sense.
Now, if you like this stuff, fine. But if you think that quoting this rubbish at me will change my mind, then you are sadly mistaken.
As I have told you several times, I had to endure this bo**ocks as an undergraduate, so unless you have a gun, and know where I live, and come round here and threaten me, there is no way I want to damage my brain with any more of it.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Anyway, it's ironic that a physicist is making the criticism he does. Physics relies on philosophical methodologies all the time. A lot of concepts in physics aren't verifiable at this point in time. Quantum physics deals a lot with hypothetical facts, axioms, etc
The difference is, as I have pointed out to you before, that the truth of philosophical theses follows from the alleged meaning of the words they contain. This is not so in Physics, or the rest of science, where theories and hypotheses are counted as true/false only after the evidence confirming/refuting them has turned up.
And this means that all of traditional philosophy is just self-important linguistic idealism -- where fundamental truths about 'reality' follow from thought/language alone.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Marx said "philosophers" not "philosophy". That is, he meant that the majority of philosophers just churn out theories that have no practical application. He didn't criticise the concept of it though. That's my interpretation.
When this is compared with all the other negative things Marx said about Philosophers and about Philosophy (and the fact that after 1844 he wrote practically zero on the subject), it is clear that, as Bretty said, Marx and W saw practically eye-to-eye on this: Philosophy is just self-important hot air, and the sooner it is put in its place (the bin) the better.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Burn, you must remember that W's philosophy is, like Marx's, an anti-philosophy, designed to bring it to an end.
But you have to be able to show people where it has led them astray.
It's no good just branding it as hot air.
That is why W engaged in the detailed analysis of the source of the confusions that have bedeviled us since Greek times -- and to which we have not found a single solution, or even one that looks close. These are very deep problems, so it takes a lot of effort to expose that source.
I think W failed because he was not political enough, so I am attempting to make up for his neglect in this area, exposing this as ruling-class hot air.
I realize we disagree, but you need to re-assess Marx's position on this, since he and I think alike (or 99% alike) here.
The only theory we need is scientific; anything else amounts to a capitulation to idealism (the belief that there are non-material things running nature that science cannot study).
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: I'd still call anti-philosophy a philosophy.
This is like calling anti-capitalism, capitalism.
If it makes you happy to do so, who am I to stop you?
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:As to metaphysics, that is pure idealism.
So, if you are a materialist, you will regard my claims above as good news.
As to ethics, you should know that this is all ideological.
Even if it weren't, why you think philosophy can help decide what is right/wrong, good/bad escapes me.
If I were to offer the service of someone who had not solved a single problem in 2500 years, and not even looked like getting close, I hope you would tell me to stick that advice where the sun does not shine.
Why you listen to philosophy/philosophers therefore beats me.
Only if you have a learning curve close the world's worst would you want to look to philosophy to solve a single problem.
Guesswork would be better....
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: I suppose I subscribe to Hume's moral sentimentalist thing. Morals aren't really rational things, they're personal and sentimental. Science can't put ethics in a test tube and measure and assess it, so we need an alternative. Nihilism, perhaps, but that's a philosophy too.
This is Exhibit A for the prosecution therefore, in that it just shows you how the thoughts of Philosophers can damage your capacity to think (no offense intended -- you are in a long line of similar victims).
You have to misuse/distort the words we already have to depict our moral choices, etc. (just as Hume did -- just as all traditional Philosophers have done) to make this work.
I will not offer an alternative 'theory', since none work, and for the same reason -- they are all based on a systematic misuse of language.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:However, Marxism does not walk away from anything; it shows that Philosophy (including dialectics) is a bogus, ideological accretion; Wittgenstein (interpreted in the way I attempt to do) reveals how and why this is so.
In that way, everything remains as it was before (since Philosophy can change nothing, just alter the phantasies we form) -- leaving it to political struggle, coupled with a scientific understanding of the world, to change things.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:What replaces Philosophy? A big hole (or a bonfire, or both), I hope.
Science cannot replace it, since that would suggest that Philosophy did have some use (in that it was a quest for knowledge that went wrong, when it was no more of a search than the mumbling of a drunk is a search for knowledge).
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:I exclude analytic political and moral philosophy from my sweeping generalisations, providing they avoid setting up/using a priori schemas based on an odd use of language, and it seems to me that much of the work done in analytic philosophy of science, mathematics, language and logic is worthwhile (given those earlier caveats). These disciplines have genuinely practical implications, even if I disagree with much that they say; it is certainly serious work and worth reading.
But this encompasses a tiny fraction of philosophy (if we compare it with its entire history), and within that history, metaphysics (which comprises the vast bulk of traditional philosophy) is a total waste of time and effort, and has gone nowhere in 2500 years.
And that is for reasons I outlined in my OP.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Read several good novels; that will tell you more about life than 2500 years of that academic and cloistered discipline called 'philosophy'.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Logic and the sciences are not part of philosophy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Historically speaking, logic is directly tied to the practice of philosophy. It has been an integral part of it.
It is certainly used by philosophers and was invented by one (Aristotle) but that does not make it part of Philosophy -- any more than meteorology is (which was also studied by Aristotle), or that pens (also used by philosophers) are.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Just as science is based on philosophical enquiry, that is, on various epistemologies.
As science progressed, it diverged from philosophy. They are now totally separate.
Moreover, science is not only highly useful it has achieved impressive, if not dazzling, results.
Philosophy has achieved nothing.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:May I recommend you get hold of a copy of the following:
Conner, C. (2005), A People's History Of Science. Miners, Midwives And "Low Mechanicks" (Nation Books).
There you will see that science was invented by ordinary working people, not by the empty speculations of work-shy philosophers.
Moreover, ordinary human beings were reasoning long before Aristotle was a lad.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Without philosophy, it can be argued that none of the other sciences would have developed.
The very first scientists weren't philosophers (on this see A People's History of Science: Miners, Midwives, and Low Mechanicks by Cliff Conner), and while the first philosophers dabbled in a little science (which distinguished itself from philosophy by being testable against nature), it is equally arguable that they held up its progress by their elitism and Idealism. Indeed, the later progress of science was actually slowed by the involvement of philosophy, as philosophers showed they preferred empty speculation to testable hypothesis formation and revealed their hostility to the experimental method. Science only began to accelerate (in the 17th and 18th centuries) when the latter approach (the experimental method) began to dominate over the former (empty speculation).
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:If you read my 'anti-philosophy' posts, you will see that I too have to 'get my hands dirty', as it were, all the time. This is called an 'immanent critique' -- whereby we use philosophy in order to hasten its demise. I employ this method to show how empty its theses are. But this does not imply I am 'doing philosophy', any more than it implies, for example, that a doctor who uses a virus to attack another virus is spreading disease.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:This seems to be a defence of theory in science, something I haven't denied, but I still fail to see any evidence, as opposed to assertion, that philosophy has been anything other than a hindrance to science. And, of course, my argument isn't based on the idea that philosophy produced by an elite (or their hangers on) is where the problem lies. Philosophy is worse than useless, whoever indulges in it.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: I think he took the same view Einstein had brought up about philosophy. That philosophy is the mother to Science, though we should not laugh at her nakedness instead pursue her interests through science. I mean there was a time where philosophy was the knowledge of all things even regarding science and mathematics. Now it stands on different poles with those very things. Now any crack-pot pseudo intellectual halfwit can call him/herself "A philosopher" (ehemmm Ayn Rand, Anton Lavey, etc.)
In fact, science and mathematics long pre-dated philosophy, and were invented by ordinary working people.
Philosophy only succeeded in mystifying both.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:In philosophy, if there is any 'supporting evidence' it is post hoc, and highly sketchy (just look at the 'evidence' that Descartes appealed to, for example; it would be laughed out of court even in an undergraduate science essay, even of his day; compare it with the careful work of Tycho Brahe, or Darwin, for example). As I noted, the truth of philosophical theses follows from thought alone, making the 'evidential ceremony' that sometimes follows an empty gesture.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Of course, 150 years ago, scientists were called 'natural philosophers', but that is no more reason for us to accept an overlap between the two disciplines than we should accept that science overlaps with theology just because 150 years ago natural theology was also classified as part of what we'd now call science.
Sure, we can re-define the two as overlapping, but then we can also re-define capitalism as 'just and fair', but what would be the point of that?
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Philosophy is the scientific inquiry into some of the more basic issues of reality and human experience. Marx was a philosopher, though he differed from some of his contemporaries in that he tried to apply a methodical, more analytical standard to the studies of philosophy.
But, Philosophy differs from science in that (1) the latter is committed to the experimental verification or falsification of its theories, and (2) the former aims at discovering theses by thought alone, supposedly true in all possible worlds, and for which experimental evidence is irrelevant. The two disciplines have totally different methodologies and aim at totally different results.
This is quite apart from the fact that Marx specifically rejected philosophy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:For 2400 years philosophers have been doing the same sort of thing, just changing the content as each mode of production rose and fell. It is indeed one of the ruling ideas, and it dominates all our thinking. You can see comrades here do the same week in week out, inventing 'theories' about fundamental aspects of reality (that it's all illusion, that everything is 'determined', that time is this or it is that, etc.) all from a brief consideration of a few words!
And they do it no matter how many times I point this out to them -- it seems so natural to them to do it.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: But I'd like for you to show me how you can argue against lets say Sartre's definition of "nothingness" without taking his definition into consideration? You cannot.
I would not try to, anymore than if he had used 'BuBuBu' instead.
As soon as I see this sort of jargon these days (mostly paraded about by French philosophers) I switch off.
I had to study this sort of guff as an undergraduate. I no longer have to. So, these days, I prefer the London telephone directory; it contains far more truth.
In short, I would no more try to criticise the philosophical ideas of Sarte, than I would try to talk to his corpse.
I have better ways of wasting my time.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:1. In fact Marx was an anti-philosopher:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/marx-anti-philosophyi-t144875/index.html2. Science was in fact invented by ordinary working people. Philosophy only succeeded in mystifying it. [See the above link.]
3. Sure, logic was codified first by Aristotle (as far was we know), but ordinary human beings had been reasoning for thousands of years prior to that. And, although logic is certainly used by philosophers, it has no more to do with philosophy than a computer has if a philosopher uses it.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "To say philosophy is a complete waste of time is either anti-intellectual or disregarding the historical significance of philosophy which is pretty sad"
It is indeed a waste of space. Not one single philosophical problem has been solved in over 2400 years. In fact, we are no nearer a solution than Plato was, and that is because, as Marx noted (and as Wittgenstein argued in detail), the entire subject is based on the systematic distortion of language.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: The philosophical methodology we use is too useful.
And yet not one single philosophical 'problem' has been solved in 2500 years, and we are no closer now to finding a solution than Plato was.
And it is not hard to see why: the source of these 'problems' lies in the fetishisation/distortion of language I have outlined here.
In short, these 'problems' are no more real than this one is:
"In chess, who performed the marriage ceremony on the King and Queen?"
This has no 'solution' since it is based on a misunderstanding of the role of certain words in chess.
Same with metaphysics/traditional philosophy.
I do not expect to win this argument; if I did, then Marx would have been wrong about those 'ruling ideas'...
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:And this claim of mine is no more an example of 'anti-intellectualism' than would a similar claim be that Theology is a waste of space, too.
Both are based on the ancient, ruling-class idea that there is a hidden world behind appearances, which is more real than the world we see around us, and which is accessible to thought alone.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: philosophers have helped advance that and given us ideas on how we should think and what methods we should use to solve problems and answer questions.
1) Certainly philosophers helped develop Aristotelian logic, but they also mystified it and confused it with a priori psychology at the same time. But, the most significant advances in logic in the last 150 years were the result of the work of mathematicians.
2) I'd like to see you present us with examples of problems philosophers have solved, or problems their methods have helped solve.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Without philosophy logic and reason as we know it would not exist"
1) Neither would meteorology. Does that make weather forecasting a philosophy?
2) You ignore the fact that informal logic has been around far longer than formal logic, and was invented (if that is the right word) by ordinary working people.
3) It's also worth recalling that formal logic was invented (as far as we know) by Aristotle, who was just as much a scientist as he was a philosopher. Subsequently, logic was mystified by philosophers, until Frege (a mathematician, not a philosopher) cleared the subject up in the late 19th century.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:1) Certainly philosophers helped develop Aristotelian logic, but they also mystified it and confused it with a priori psychology at the same time. But, the most significant advances in logic in the last 150 years were the result of the work of mathematicians.
2) I'd like to see you present us with examples of problems philosophers have solved, or problems their methods have helped solve.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Using rational arguments (which long pre-dated philosophy) in order to help accelerate its demise is not also to do philosophy.
So, we are still waiting for one, just one, philosophical problem that has been solved in the last 2400 years...
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Beside’s scientific method doesn’t exist unless a philosopher of science defines it.
It may be unclear, but I cannot figure out why you think it is up to philosophers to lay the law down here.
They do not even make the reserve list. :>
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:About what?
About the 'value' of philosophy in general?
Let me put it like this: I think it allows people to think they can access truths about reality on the cheap.
[Freud's ideas have a similar effect; armchair psychiatrists can indulge in easy diagnoses without doing any science, and without worrying about the consequences.]
And that is it's only value.
[Apart, that is, from helping to ratify ruling-class ideas indirectly: that truths like these can be 'found' by thought alone, on the cheap.
Oh, and providing me with more examples of how ruling ideas rule even Marxist minds.
Apart from that, no value whatsoever -- Hume's bonfires are sorely needed.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: The first people to say the earth is round were philosophers.
In so far as they addressed the material world, they were scientists. And it is open to doubt they were the first to point this out.
Check out the following book:
Conner, C. (2005), A People's History Of Science. Miners, Midwives And "Low Mechanicks" (Nation Books).
There the author (who is a Marxist) points out:
Quote:
"It is evident from the arguments of the ancient authors, however, that their knowledge of the earth's roundness was drawn from the experience of seafarers.... Strabo [a historian and geographer -- RL] wrote:
Quote:
'...It is obviously the curvature of the sea that prevents sailors from seeing distant lights at an elevation equal to that of the eye; however, if they are at a higher elevation than that of the eye, they become visible...'" (pp.224-25.)
He goes on to point out that Aristotle drew on the experience of sailors to conclude the earth was spherical (p.225). He notes the same is true of Pliny (p.224).
Once again, it was ordinary working people who knew more than these work-shy 'theorists'.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:1) Philosophy is just systematic confusion, so it's neither anti-science nor pro-science.
2) Wittgenstein's philosophy is in fact an anti-philosophy (indeed, he wanted to give the word ("philosophy") an entirely new meaning); his method was aimed at showing that all philosophical problems arose out of confusion, which was itself a consequence of the misuse of language -- as Marx also indicated.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Since Ancient Greek times, 'philosophy' has come to mean much more than this -- traditionally it relates to an esoteric form of 'wisdom'/'knowledge', pertaining to a hidden world underlying appearances that is more real than the world we see around us, and which is accessible to thought alone.
In view of this, it's not hard to see why Marx was an anti-philosopher. Anyone who reads The German Ideology, The Poverty of Philosophy and The Holy Family can come to no other conclusion.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:For over two thousand years traditional Philosophers have been playing on themselves and their audiences what can only be described as a series of complex verbal tricks. Since Greek times, metaphysicians have occupied themselves with deriving a priori theses solely from the meaning of a few specially-chosen (and suitably doctored) words. These philosophical gems have then been peddled to the rest of humanity, dressed-up as profound truths about fundamental aspects of reality -- peremptorily imposed on nature, almost invariably without the benefit of a single supporting experiment.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:After 2400 years of going nowhere slowly, one would have thought that you'd have got the message: philosophy is little more than the systematic capitulation to the misuse of language, and a self-important expression of ruling-class forms of thought.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:The problem is that philosophers take ordinary words, misuse them, and then think that they have made a deep point about "mind" or "Being", when all they have done is build a few castles in the air out of figments of their own imagination. Wittgensteinian OLP does not in fact argue that there are or should be no other uses of language, only that philosophical language is just hot air, and can be shown to be hot air.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:1) Scientific socialism relies on the working class, not philosophy.
2) Philosophy is a 2400 year old, ruling-class failure, and you want us to adopt it? I'd rather adopt a bullet in the head.
3) What have 'evaluations' got to do with anything?
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Well, I have published a long and complex proof that philosophy is 100% non-sense (based on Wittgenstein's work, and that of others); so I rather think it is you who is 'simplifying' things:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2012_01.htm
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:But, what has this got to do with 'The Self'?
This is a typically nonsensical philosophical question, the soluton to which is to be found, not by scientific research, but by juggling with a few misused words.
As I have indicated in other posts, the idea that there is a 'solution' to this sort of question is based on an ancient, ruling-class doctrine that certain fundamental truths about reality/ourselves can be ascertained by thought alone.
It is a nonsensical question because there is no way of making sense of it without using distorted language, and thus, there is no way of making sense of it.
It is also why philosophy has managed to solve not one single 'problem' in over 2500 years, and not even close -- they are all nonsensical.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:"The self" being a subject reduced from 'yourself,' 'oneself,' etc...
Then why not ask about 'The Se", which is 'reduced' even more?
The problem is, you have to distort ordinary language to get this 'wild goose chase' off the ground.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:In fact, I have been reading and studying philosophy since the early 1970s, and I have yet to come across a single philosophical 'problem' that we are any nearer to solving than was Plato. Perhaps you know differently, but you unwisely kept that to yourself. And now you say that philosophy's success is not defined by how many problems it has solved, and you are wise to take that view, since it hasn't solved a single one.
But, it's lack of success is perhaps clearer to see from the additional fact that we are no nearer to a solution to a single one than was Plato. Indeed, in that philosophy is now vastly more complex than it was 2500 years ago, we are arguably further away from a single solution than was Plato.
So, not so much 'progress' then than retrogression. You are welcome to this total waste of human energy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:The historical evidence tells us that ordinary working people were thinking mathematically, scientifically and rationally long before philosophers pinched their ideas.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Religion may be the projection of alienated humanity's self-image, but so is Philosophy (it is just more abstract than Theology): it amounts to the fetishisation of social forms of communication, and inverts them so that they are then confused with real relations between things, or those things themselves (to adapt Marx's own critique of the fetishisation of commodities)
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:In fact I object to philosophy since it produces nothing but non-sensical and incoherent theories. The fact that this leads to pointless arguments is a spin-off of this, so it isn't my main objection, nor is it near the top of the list of my objections. My second most important objection is that traditional philosophy expresses little other than ruling-class ideology masquerading as metaphysical profundity.
And, of course, I recognize that Russell adopted the approach you suggested, but his foundational work (but not his logic) proved to be totally worthless and had no practical effect on mathematics, a fact which, oddly enough, supports my negative view of philosophy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:If you will forgive me for saying this, the sort of material you posted has been churned out now for 2500 years, and we are still no nearer an answer.
This is because these sorts of ideas are presented as dogmatic theses, as if they have come down from off the mountain.
Partly because of that, I claim they make no sense at all, and depend on twisting language, misusing it, or inventing incomprehensible jargon where ordinary words will not do.
So, my stance, if I have one, is that not a single philosophical idea, that has ever been propounded, makes the slightest bit of sense, and we should stop kidding ourselves. We do not need it, just more and better science.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:And it is odd you should chose Plato in your thought experiment about the effect his early death would have had on experimental science, since it is a widely accepted fact that the Platonic tradition was aristocratically motivated, and hence anti-working class, and thus held engineering and the experimental tradition in contempt. As I noted earlier, you should read Cliff Conner's book on this (where you will find abundant evidence that it was the working class and engineering input that contributed most to the advancement of science).
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:My position on philosophy in general is that like religion, it can reflect genuine distress and a desire to fight back (some of the examples you give illustrate that), but ultimately, it gains its rationale from ruling ideas. However, my objection to philosophy in general is not that it represents ruling ideas, but that it is arrant nonsense.
Sure some philosophers were poor, but most of the important ones were not, and these were loinised by their masters.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:I would hazard a guess that most of analytic philosophers were either empiricists, logical empiricists, positivists, logical positivists, realists of one sort or another, conventionalists, and the like.
The minority from whom I have learnt the most were none of the above. They rejected all philosophical theories of nature (or of anything), as I do.
In that sense, I am happy to let science (not philosophy) tell us what we need to know about nature, etc.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: Whats wrong with metaphysics?
Basically, it is an attempt to do supercience (i.e., the endeavour to derive super truths from mere words), and 'discover' industrial strength truths about nature from thought alone, not from actual scientific investigation. Knowledge on the cheap, as it were.
As such it is 100% idealist.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: I don't know what to think about existentialism
It's an attempt to do a priori super anti-science, so it suffers from all the failings of traditional thought -- in that it tries to derive truths from words/concepts, trivial apercu, and fiction. [So, if anything, it is worse!]
It was also an expression of the failings of French Communism -- and amounted to a retreat into despair by certain intellectuals.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: what is your problem (if any) with Sartre's philosophy, specifically existentialism and his form of dialectics (besides the terminology issue)?
It is wind-baggery dressed up as profound insight.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Well, I am not the one to say, since I am so biased -- but if you want my slanted opinion, dialectical philosophy is too confused to achieve anything --, other than cloud the issues, that is.
It certainly has not tackled the above problems, nor could it.
That would be like, say, George W Bush trying to solve problems in Quantum Mechanics; you'd be lucky if he or it could even recognise the problem, let alone know what to do about it.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:As I noted, we just need more and better science -- but no Philosophy at all.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:In fact, if you consult Clifford Conner's 'A People History of Science' you will see that the Greeks were not the first to systematise science:
http://www.booknoise.net/sciencehistory/index.htmlBut they were among the first to impose idealism on it, including the belief that the universe is 'rational' (and designed by the mind of 'god'), an idea invented by the mystical Pythagoreans, and turned into an art form by that proto-fascist, Plato.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Well, I am not sure how you are going to prove that it is a philosophical viewpoint without implicating the sort of class-motivated bias theorists like Plato introduced into western thought.
The distinction between teche and episteme is based on Plato's denigration of the contribution of the 'lower orders' (thus privileging the contribution of 'pure' thinkers like himself, who he felt were the only ones fit to rule), and it gels very badly with the Marxist emphasis of the unity of theory and practice.
And, as Martin Bernal has shown, the Greeks pinched many of their ideas from the Egyptians (among others):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bernalhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_AthenaAnd, of course, science was systematised in China long before the Greeks.
And, like you I am not trying to denigrate the Greeks, but we must be clear that their science was heavily coloured by ruling class ideology.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:In fact, if you read Socrates's 'arguments', the vast majority depend on word-juggling and the systematic distortion of ordinary words, as Marx alleged. So, if anything, Socrates sent human rationality backwards!
And what practical application did his thought have -- other than support the aristocratic and anti-democratic status quo, as I pointed out earlier?
Finally, I hope you are not suggesting that Socrates was the very first person in human history to ask 'Why?'
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: You're a bit anti-intellectual aren't you?
As I pointed out earlier: this is no more an example of 'anti-intellectualism' than would a similar claim be that Theology is a waste of space.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "No, again historically speaking, philosophy has achieved something truly remarkable - the existence and practical implementation of science itself."
But that has nothing to do with philosophy.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "After all, almost everything, including science, had been used by the ruling class."
Correct, but the key thing is that science has to stand up to material reality; philosophy and theology do not.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Wasn't it philosophers who believe that truth isn't disclosed by thought alone? How doesn't my list fulfill your challenge?"
As far as I can see, they might have said that, but they did the exact opposite in their writings, coming out with their own a priori theses, which they happily imposed on the world.
Nietzsche is perhaps the best example, excoriating metaphysics, but inventing his own a priori theories at the same time.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:I am arguing against all of philosophy since it represents the most abstract form of ruling-class ideology (and I include in that all forms of philosophical materialism).
As I said, I don't expect to win anyone here to my views. I think you (plural) have had ruling-class ideas forced down your throats since childhhood, and you clearly think that a dogmatic and a priori way to theorise is quite natural, and the only way that 'legitimate' philosophy should be practiced -- that is, that fundamental truths about reality can be derived from thought alone, and can then be imposed on the universe dogmatically.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Theorizing is part of philosophy."
True, but, as I have shown you several times, the result is always nonsense.
It seems you have learnt nothing from Wittgenstein....
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "It needs philosophy...it needs moral theory, and science can't give it that."
Once more: Philosophy is a 2400 year old, ruling-class failure.
We need that bogus 'discipline' like the fire service needs a chocolate ladder.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Philosophy is a form of speculation. It is crucial to understand what philosophy is."
Well that is what the brochure says, but, as I pointed out, when you examine the delivered article all you see are twisted words, and piss-poor logic.
So, it's not 'speculation', it is out-and-out distortion.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "As for the general stance of 'making' philosophy, I would say that philosophy will exist as long as some aspect of the universe remains unknown."
Well, it will last just so long as human beings think they can derive a few easy truths from the quirky use of a handful of words.
It is to be hoped that as science develops and (in a socialist society) as the need for religious and non-religious opiates slowly vanishes, the need to project empty words onto reality (in the pretence this is a substitute for hard scientific effort, when it is bogus science on the cheap) will peter out.
And while there remain unanswered questions about nature, science (not philosophy, since it is a total sham) will be needed.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "religion is a dogmatic version of philosophical belief."
I think you are confusing religion with theology.
Theology is the dogmatic form of religious belief. Philosophy and theology have been traditionally linked, but this is not necessary; there are major differences.
Anyway, it matters not; traditional philosophy allegedly reveals an a priori structure to reality, one established by a quirky use of words, and nothing else; so it is a complete sham. In that sense it provides non-religious consolation for those taken in by this linguistic fraud.
It cannot reveal anything about reality since it is based on empty phraseology, no more than the nonsense rhymes of Edward Lear or Lewis Carroll can either.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:All we need is science and more science, if it cannot explain something, philosophy stands no chance.
Why?
Philosophers have been unable to solve single problem in 2500 years of trying (nor have they even looked like they ever could).
Their pursuit of 'knowledge' is about as unsuccessful a human endeavour as one could imagine.
It was originally invented and is now only maintained because it helps support the idea that the universe is 'rational' (i.e., the product on Mind) and has an a priori structure that thought alone can explore (hence it is fundamentally Idealist).
This has then been used to substantiate the idea that there is an underlying natural order to the universe (unavailable to the senses, so you have to take the word of the rich and powerful that it exists), which order also determines social stratification (these days through our 'genes', etc.), and which justifies class division (the 'deserving rich', etc.), and the power of the state (to maintain 'order') and, of course, traditional morality (these days, called 'Western/Family Values').
Hence, my constant argument against the need for a philosophy of any sort.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:If you want to do philosophy, traditional philosophy, make stuff up too.
But then do not expect other words whose meaning you take for granted to stay the same. If you can live in a dream, perhaps 'live' means 'drink cola' -- how do you know?
Once you begin to screw around with material language, all meaning starts to slide (as even Hegel would have agreed).
So, as I noted, if you want to use language sloppily, that is up to you, but don't expect nature to take any notice -- it does not have to answer to our linguistic profligacy.
So any 'conclusions' you draw are either worthless, or merely poetical.
And that is why, after 2400 years, no progress at all has been made in Philosophy (except the invention of more empty jargon).
And, next time the doc tells you you have flu, tell him/her that his/her lack of imagination in the use of words is the only thing wrong with you.
In science, and in every other serious discipline, this sort of sloppy approach to details is not tolerated.
In poetry and fiction on the other hand, it is.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:Once again, there is nothing there to understand (unless you are using the word 'understand' in an odd way), any more than there is anything to 'understand' in the Jabberwocky example I keep using.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with whiling away the hours using empty words and phrases (but you can just get drunk to do that!), but, speaking for myself, I'd rather watch my toenails grow -- or get drunk.
Now if you have to do this for college etc., that is a different matter (but you should get paid to have this linguistic pain inflicted upon you!).
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "After this understanding, philosophy won't be dangerous because it won't prevent us from focusing us on current material conditions but after the revolution, we can all sit in a cafe and speculate (of course without the 'cloudy' language) under heavy tobacco smoke about things we can never prove, just for the sake of the enjoyment of a good discussion."
This sort of past-time is about as useful (and entertaining) as the following (an example I have used here before):
Imagine someone observing a game of chess, who then says "Hang on a minute, that King over there. I don't remember the coronation; and when did he marry that Queen? And who gave planning permission to put that castle there; has that horse been fed...?"
You would rightly regard such a person as mad.
But philosophers do the same sort of thing with language. They take words from their normal, everyday use, from the material contexts where they have their life (language ‘goes on holiday’ to quote Wittgenstein), wrench them from these surroundings and ask all manner of odd questions, and derive seemingly startling 'truths' from such deformed expressions.
So, someone might wonder if it is in the nature of the shape of the King in chess that gives it its special properties in the game, or maybe the wood or ivory from which it is made (ignoring the rules for the normal use of these pieces).
Similarly, philosophers ask whether it is in the nature of 'time' to be what it is, or in the nature of 'space', pulling these words away from their normal contexts of use (ignoring these while they do it), not noticing that when they do that these words no longer function in the way they used to, and all meaning vanishes, leaving an empty slate upon which they can write their own fantasies (as in the chess example).
Just as, when one divorces say the King in chess from the rules of the game and the way these are employed, philosophers do the same with material language.
In the chess example we all know what to say: we would regard it as a peculiar from of intellectual/sub-intellectual lunacy.
But, in the case of philosophy, we all nod our heads sagely, and say it is profound, or entertaining, or revealing, or harmless, or....
Not me; I am happy to call it ruling-class bo**locks.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "What "Rosa", rather amusingly doesn't seem to notice is that "philosophy is a useless discipline" is itself a philosophical statement and a self-negating one at that. But don't take my word for it, everything I say is false."
Why is "Philosophy is useless" philosphical? You negelected to demonstrate this point.
And even if it were, why is "Philosophy useless" self-negating? Something could still be true but remain useless; for example: The 456,667th mouse born in Japan since 1734 is brown. That could be true. But is it any use? It might be some use, but it doesn't have to be (which is all I need). And it could be false, and still useless. Either way, it could be useless while also being either true or false.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "I suggest you ignore the advice of Rosa"
Yes, we ought to engage this lost soul in a ruling-class endeavour that has taken humanity on a slow 2500 year meander to nowhere, solving not one single problem along the way; what a good idea!
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Even Rosa's patron-saint, Wittgenstein, read Kierkegaard and Schopenhauer"
He read the second when young, and rapidly abandoned the ideas he found there, and of the second, even W admitted K was mind-numbingly boring.
And we will need a little more than just your say so that W meant that the work of these two jokers was part of the ladder he suggested we throw away (especially when he was explicitly referring to his own 'propositions' when he used that metaphor).
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Rosa, out of curiosity, what is your opinion of Lacan and Zizek?"
What I have read of Lacan suggests I'd learn more from reading a Martian telephone directory.
And what little I have read of Zizek has formed in me no other opinion than I should resist all inducements to read any more.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "If you like good novels, why discount philosophy?"
1) Becasue philosophy is based on the systematic misuse of language.
2) This is not so with good novels.
3) With such novels we know we are dealing with fiction.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Success in philosophy, I suggest, might be seen to consist entirely in relativist achievements: to be a matter of making onceself the focus of attention of other philosphers.
However, philosophy has a history and more to the point, its history is part of social and cultural history. Thus Kant had huge success in the history of philosophy and has proven over time to have achieved that by articulating key pillars of certain ideas (ideas I consider false) which have persistently re-occured/reemerged in capitalist society.
If one thinks that the only success in thinking is to articulate truth then one cannot ascribe any success to any philosopher on any significant scale (with the exception of Aristotle but only because he happened to be an amazing scientist as well). If one accepts a broader definition of success - in terms of contributing to human progress - then there are some philosophers who have had success, although at the price of articulating things which are actually untrue (and of making arguments which are false). But that is true of many scientists as well."
Summary of the above: philosophy has enjoyed no success at all...
No surprise there then, since, as Marx noted, it's based on a distortion of language.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "its greatest utility is not in giving answers, but in pointing out how best to ask the question"
But, in over 2400 years of trying, philosophers are no nearer even that goal!
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:It could indeed be read that way -- that is, until you recall that I have actually taken Marx's advice to heart (whereas you are still resisting it):
"The philosophers have only to dissolve their language into the ordinary language, from which it is abstracted, in order to recognise it, as the distorted language of the actual world....
"One has to 'leave philosophy aside'...one has to leap out of it and devote oneself like an ordinary man to the study of actuality, for which there exists also an enormous amount of literary material, unknown, of course, to the philosophers....
"Philosophy is nothing else but religion rendered into thought and expounded by thought, i.e., another form and manner of existence of the estrangement of the essence of man; hence equally to be condemned...."
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "Rosa, doesn't all this discussion just depend upon how we define 'philosophy'? If it's taken as a 'love of wisdom', I can't see a problem. If it's taken as 'speculative ideas in the service of the contemporary ruling class', then I'm with you!"
The problem with that is that speculative metaphysicians also 'love wisdom'
But, I can see no 'wisdom' coming from philsophers, can you? Sure, they might have come up with a few trite maxims that contained good advice, but we can get that from the religious, too -- as well as from a good novel, and, indeed, from poetry!
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "You clearly have a philosophy, but either you don't recognise it, or wish to hide it."
You'd like to think I have one, wouldn't you? But not only do I not have one, I don't want one, and don't think we need one. Moreover, you have no evidence to that I do have one.
Indeed, if you ever do find any evidence that I have a philosophy, I'll reject and disown that philosophy instantly, and then apologise profusely.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "I think the specific value of philosophy is in its speculative nature."
But, after 2500 years of aimless speculation, philosophers have absolutely no results to show for all that wasted effort. In fact, they would have been far better occupied watching their toe-nails grow for all the good they have done.
Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: "philosophy may be useless, but it's fun."
I agree: about as much fun as watching one's toenails grow -- at least they will get further after 2500 years!